The reasons why I installed Zonrin and why I am leaving it

Hi to all.
Yes, I'm leaving Zorin and I wish I could share my feelings with you in order to get the project better. In short:

WHY I INSTALLED ZORIN?
1) It has been announced to be easy to use for people that are new to the Linux world, alternative to Windows.
2) I was tired of Ubuntu (too many commercials and mostly I hate Unity) and I have been disappointed by Kubuntu and Linux Mint as well

WHY I AM LEAVING ZORIN?
1) Since it is not stable (talking about AWN, talking about the FILE fork of Nautilus, talking about the window manager, ...)
2) Since there's not enough support, mostly relying on just a couple of always-the-same holy and helpful users
3) Since it is not 100% customizable (for example: cannot add new themes to the theme changer. Maybe there's a way to do it, but I did not find it despite I'm Gnu/Linux user since 2006)
4) I've been unable to install a Brother and a Canon printer

More in detail, we cannot say Zorin is an alternative to Windows as long as it only has just some look-and-feel reminding Windows. It cannot be an alternative to Windows as long as you experience troubles and solutions which has nothing to do with the Windows world. Of course you may tell "Windows is Windows, Zorin is Zorin (or Linux is Linux)": one reason more not to tell Zorin is "similar" to Windows. What can a Windows user do when experiencing typical distribution upgrade troubles with Ubuntu based distros? And what when experiencing continous AWN crashes? And what when the window manager fails? How can a Windows user feel at home with such new troubles? No way. Of course, changing OS implies the above, but again we cannot tell Zorin is a good place to start compared to Linux Mint and maybe others.
As for support, this is the worst pity in my opinion. The fact that I spent several posts and several google searches in order to understand the differences among the several Zorin releases explains the situation very well. The situation is confirmed when you get into real troubles: if the 2 holy guys of above have no solution/suggestion then you are definitively lost and stuck with your troubles.
i also know that many of the above problems are not strictly related to Zorin, such as Awn crashes. But it is do related to Zorin the choice of having AWN installed by default! I mean: do you want to build a "stable" system? Then do not rely on buggy applications just because they are shiny.

So, I wrote this post just to share my own experience and hope it helps making Zorin better and better.
I want to say thank you for you work and for your support during my stay here while experiencing Zorin. I've been installing it on pc others than mine spreading Zorin to other people. I will suspend this Zorin-spreading activity as I did it with Ubuntu but I will be surely be spreading it back as soon as I feel Zorin will become more stable.

Well, I think it is time for me to move from Ubuntu based distros to some different ones. Any suggestion, please?

Hi,

sorry you feel that way!.

Canon drivers can be got here:

http://support-asia.canon-asia.com/?personal

Brother here:

http://www.ossdoc.com/2012/11/installin ... r-on.html#

and

http://support.brother.com/g/b/index.aspx

See also:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Printers

Very simple to install themes here:

http://www.noobslab.com/2011/11/themes- ... unity.html

With Linux, sometimes it just takes a little longer and people are expected to learn as they go!.

And last but not least, I am far from being holy!.

Greetings, Maccabbeo.

I would like to spend some time to offer an alternative viewpoint.

If you have been using GNU/Linux for about eight years, you are *not* a representative Windows user. You are a different kind of computer user, and this is completely apparent in your arguments.

The common Windows XP user, in *my* experience, is working on a system that is between 10 and 5 years old; it had XP pre-installed with a host of additional c*** they didn't ask for; it was pretty fast in the beginning, but now it takes 15 minutes to settle down after bootup; they have made a habit of clicking away the McAfee messages about five years old virus definitions; they have finally switched to Chrome because they couldn't use YouTube anymore with IE 6.0, and they are still looking at the original desktop background!

Most importantly, they wouldn't mind using XP for the next decade, after all, they only want to surf, mail, chat, play a game, listen to music, watch a video, and perhaps, create a few Word files; but they are getting a little worried about this massive media campaign organized to make them feel unsafe. Frightened people don't think rationally and you can make them buy anything you want if you scare them enough - it's been known for thousands of years.

So let's look at your arguments:

1) Zorin is completely stable (in my experience), and it stays stable if you don't mess with it, like Windows XP. I suspect that Zorin will remain stable after a prolonged period of use (unlike Windows XP), but I haven't used it that long to be sure.

2) Microsoft doesn't give any support to Home users. They do for companies, but only if you're willing to pay for it on a yearly basis, whether you use it or not. They strip their Home editions of all diagnostic and development software, and they rely totally on their massive online documentation, which is completely incomprehensible for novice users. Ubuntu's novice documentation is much better then Microsoft's.

To be sure, I have used hundreds of forums over the years, moderated several, even build a few, and the amount of support and advice I've gotten on this forum is outstanding - friendly, to the point, and almost always solving the problem. I have no idea how these fellow keep doing this, but in my organization, if someone answers 6.000 support tickets in less then three years, they deserve a golden support medal and a fat-___ Rolex.

3) Windows users don't customize at all. They use what they get, and they don't complain about it, for the idea of customizing itself is completely alien to them. It takes a special kind of curiosity to even think about possibilities for customizing, and there's term for it, it's called a hacker mentality. If you're a hacker (and if you are, I congratulate you, for I love and admire true hackers), you don't whine about not being able to add new themes; you experiment until you find out how. But for common Windows users, this argument is completely irrelevant.

4) Windows XP couldn't read my Commodore 64 floppies either, so what? First thing you learn when digging into Windows is that with each new version, you lose some hardware that worked with the previous version. I've kept DOS around for serial I/O, Windows 95 for a USB data bridge, 98 for my joysticks and 2000 for my scanners and a few USB video camera's. Windows users simply accept this. But you know what - Microsoft will never develop a driver for my good old 5.25 inch floppy drive, and nether will IBM who created the drive. And legally, I'm not allowed to do it myself. But there might be some smart Linux hacker that owns the same model, and the only thing I have to do, is to find him or her.

In short: if you don't like Zorin, fine, I sure hope you find something better. But your claim that "It cannot be an alternative to Windows as long as you experience troubles and solutions which has nothing to do with the Windows world." is untrue and irrelavant. Your expectations of Zorin were simply wrong. But common Windows users have different expectations, and I believe Zorin is currently the best candidate to meet those expectations.

Just my personal view, we can agree to disagree, and it was not intended to insult or hurt anyone. If I unwillingly did (I am not a native English speaker), I sincerely apologize.

I wish you well.
Simon

Hi Simon. Thanks for sharing your point of view with me. You are definitively right: I'm not a "new" linux user. You are definitively wrong: the Zorin OS was not mainly intended for me, but for spreading the Linux word by let Windows users start using an easy-to-use linux distro.

As for what you say:
1) Zorin is not stable since several components are not: AWN is not stable (so consequently Zorin is not stable); the windows manager is not stable (so consequently Zorin is not stable); the fonts have been sparkling and other issues have been experienced as already discussed in several threads some months/weeks ago. If you are curious, have a look at them. Nice to see you now ready to defend Zorin: I wish I could have met you before when I was in troubles, that would have been the best way to give Zorin a good defence. However, none of your fault and nice to read you now.
2) As for a new Linux user coming from Windows, Zorin laks of support. Windows does need any support as for concerning their standard use. Again, have alook at my threads: just 2 users replied. You may tell I had bad luck, maybe. But it happened several times so I tought it was a "normal" situation. I can guarantee I've not been messing AWN: AWN is messed up by itself and this is none of my and your fault even if it must be told that Zorin delevopers chose AWN as default dock, not me, not any Windows user.
3) Customization topic was not related to the eye of the standard Windows user: it is amazing looking at them while using any linux distro and not going around anywere trying to discover what does this and what does that... just as they do with Windows actually: using the system in a basic way, not even cleaning the trash.
4) Losing hardware is something I expect by Windows, not by Linux systems. Linux is also intended to recover old hardware. However, as I said, some topics are not strictly related to Zorin but inherited by Ubuntu such as the issues related to upgrading the distro release.

In short, you should have a look at my threads to understand how heavy are the problems I've been experiencing, problems that may happen to any one and which unfortunately did not find any solution here.

So, I confirm you did not offend me as it should be clear I am not offending you. We just have different points of view and by my side also some documents proving what I am saying (again, take a look at my threads or even ask to Wolfman and Swarfendor437 who have been trying hard to help me solving such problems).

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Greetings, Maccabbeo.

1) It seems that your definition of "stable" is completely different then mine.

When I did my first install of Zorin 8.1 Core, I played around with the AWN panel, trying to switch to an inversed, high contrast theme, and yes, I remember, it did receive some error message or so. I did what any Windows user would do, I clicked it away, and when it happen again, I went to the System Settings and disabled the entire reporting function.

You see, for me (Windows user) unstable means that dreaded Blue Screen, everything gone, game over, reboot and start again. As long as that doesn't happen, in my definition, the system is stable. As to problems, have you ever looked at the system and security logs in XP and W7? I don't care about internal problems, as long as the system recovers instantly and I don't lose any work or time. I understand your perspective is different, and you may be right from a Linux viewpoint, but from the view of a Windows user, I have no problem at all with Zorin's stability.

2) Again, we have a definition difference. The common Windows users I am referring to (a) had somebody to introduce them to the system, (b) they bought and read a book about it, or (c) learned the hard way, by trial and error. Support, for them, is asking friends or neighbors to look over their shoulder. Besides, they had no choice, XP came with the computer, and it was all they had.

You are right: there's currently no good Starters Guide to Zorin, and that could be considered a lack of supporting documentation. However, rumor has it that such a guide is already in the making.

As to active support, I fear you are comparing Zorin support with Ubuntu support, in other words, you are comparing two Linux communities, which differ enormously in size. That is not a fair comparison, in my view.

3) and 4) Agreed

I browsed over your posts and I conclude two things: firstly, you're trying to do a lot of things that a common Windows user wouldn't even dream about, and secondly, you are comparing Zorin to Ubuntu, not to Windows. You have all the right in the world to make such a comparison, and whatever you prefer, that's your business and yours alone. I am not attacking you for your taste or preference. But if want to assess or evaluate Zorin as a potential replacement for Windows XP, then I think you ought to forget everything you know about Linux and Ubuntu, and view Zorin's outlook and behavior from the eyes of a Windows user.

Finally, if I may be so bold, I dare presume that both Wolfman and Swarfendor437 are so fully occupied with answering requests for help, they have no time at all to write long winding posts such as this, which is why I took the liberty to do it myself.

Let the devs develop, let the support guru's solve problems, and let ordinary folk like us ramble on and keep the peace.

I wish you well,
Simon

You know, I may partially agree with you: I'm trying to find a distro which can act as a bridge between the Windows and Linux world. So actually I have a multiple point of view: 1) how a Windows user can look at it; 2) how such an ex Windows user can look at it. According to what you say, Zorin may not be intended to be the all-life-long distro, but a good place to start in order to approach to the Linux world. Just limited to this and swith to something else as soon as it is required.
My definition of "stable" is at 360 degrees and yet Ubuntu based distros are not stable, so consequently Zorin cannot be. I hoped it could, but it is definitively not. Moreover is adds more elements of instability such as AWN and all the stuff I've been reporting previously. By the way, wishing AWN not to crash, wishing Skype icon to be at its own place, wishing the fonts not to sparkle (never seen that issue before!!!), wishing not to have a system messed up after upgrading (you upgrade since the system itself tells you something like that "hey, upgrade me! a new release has come out!!!"), wishing the window elements to be at their own place... I cannot consider such things as "a lot of things that a common Windows user wouldn't even dream about". Now the sparkling fonts issue has gone after upgrading the distro, but I paid such a confort at high price as you could see from the attached screenshot showing: a) no way to close the windows by clicking on the "x" (close) icon, no way to minimize/maximize by using the related icons since they are just gone, don't know where/how/why. Also, it is impossible for me to change the number of work space on the bottom right corner (dispite I vary the number of work places it just does not care about my choice and will always leave 4 workplaces there). Again, I myself know such problems are not related to Zorin as I already told multiple times but it is do related to Zorin the choice of relying on buggy elements. Consequently, the system is not stable and that's why I wanna try Sabayon, a Gentoo based system: I've been trying Red Hat based systems several years ago (maybe around 1999) before becoming a stable Ubuntu-based user since 2006, so it is time for me to explore new planets in the Linux universe hoping to find something more suitable to spread the Linux world. Meanwhile, I will probably go on installing Zorin for people wishing to abandon the Windows world.

So, let's get back to Zoring and hope here you could tell me at least whether you have some suggestions to solve the problems shown in the screen shot.

Hi, I think a lot of issues depends on kit, processor, pae and non-pae (I am writing this on an old Notebook - decided to try AV-Linux - Debian with LXDE 4.10 and I think Zorin should seriously consider moving to Debian - only time will tell how stable this is but as a dedicated Multimedia distribution (I cannot compare to Zorin) but I do like:

1. Detailed installation options - Language default can be changed to your 'locale', you can remove the English US locale and default language at point of install, you can choose exactly what keyboard you have, you can choose what model/series of Notebook you are installing to. You get a nice option of where you want to install to, you get a clear and separate option of where to install GRUB in a separate window.

2. Wireless - out of the box - just had to choose the network and apply the password and then edit the settings to be the correct ones.

3. The LX Panel at the bottom reminds me of how I modified AWN to suite my needs with no indicator-3 applet and a transparency present by default:



4. IceWeasel browser (blue too!) and I am able to upload pictures - which Firefox on which it is based cannot do in Version 28 up! (Ice Weasel 14.0).

5. It's an AV distro and YouTube works out of the box in IceWeasel.

Needless to say, an AV distro is not for everyone but it has an impressive list of apps for those who want it by default:



I am not dissing Zorin - it filled the gap after Michael Robertson showed his true colours about Linspire - he only wanted the money - Zorin want to make it a clear alternative for Windows users and that is why I got involved as a Moderator when Zorin 4 came out (I had a brief absence and that is why it does not show up as long as Wolfman's

I would be more than happy to take on the task of writing a manual and creating a pdf in ordinary and accessible formats but in order to do that I would not be present on this forum perhaps I should create a 'voting' panel on what you would like me to do!

Greetings, Maccabbeo.

I can't help you with your problems: I am a newbie, here, only discovered Zorin ten days ago, May 1st; deleted Win7 and installed Zorin on May 2nd; and registered on this forum on May 3rd. I gladly leave your questions to the experts.

But I have been working with computers for over 35 years, and I can tell there are three golden rules, and you only learn them the hard way:

1) KEEP YOUR DATA SAFE

2) ALWAYS PLAY IN A SANDBOX

3) LOVE MAKING MISTAKES

I am pretty sure you followed rule 1, you didn't complain about losing data, but I'm also pretty sure you didn't follow rules 2 and 3.

If you want to play around with Zorin, then boot into a Live version and play safe. Try things out, whatever you want, take some notes, and when things go wrong, reboot and start again. Keep away from your installed version, because you need that to get your work done. I can't understand why someone with your experience would start customizing a production system, the system you depend upon, when now-a-days it is so easy to play in a sandbox. Use Virtual Box, boot into a Live session, or, if all else fails, create an image of your system and store it externally. Don't touch your system until you know how to backup and restore it.

Once you start following rule 2, rule 3 becomes easy. I've just spend three hours trying to find out how to make screen shots in Zorin 6.2 Lite (LIVE!). Installed a dozen or so packages, got twice as much errors, made the system almost unstable, finally found lxscreenshot which seemed to work, and spend another hour to find out how to save the image. Loved every minute of it, and learned a lot.

I wish you well,
Simon

(PS. lxscreenshot - press the "Take Screenshot" button *again* to save it...)

Install "shutter" for screenshots, it has stacks of features!:

http://shutter-project.org/about/

http://shutter-project.org/faq-help/set ... shot-tool/

Sorry that you experienced some issues related to customization and that's why I have suggested long time ago that Zorin switch to Cinnamon because it is the most flexible DE so far. I even talked to my friend on the Linux Mint forum to make us some Cinnamon themes for Zorin OS for an easier transition http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=211&t=155402&sid=7dd992f1b583eec70d5714b8c1c666f7&start=20. The result was the following themes:

1- http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Zorin8+White?content=163887
2- http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Zorin8+Black?content=162916

I also talked to the configurable menu guy to add a windows 7 theme to it and he did in an excellent way I have been testing Cinnamon 2.2 nightly build on Ubuntu 14.04 and it is dead-fast and snappy and I think Zorin OS 9 should be based on Cinnamon 2.2

This is myy concept Zorin OS 9 (the desktop in the screenshot is Cinnamon 2.2 + Zorin OS white/Black cinnamon theme which looks and behaves exactly like AWN dock and the yellow box is a netspeed applet which after I talked to its developer detects network interfaces automatically)

Wallpaper: http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/ZorinOS9?content=164727

Is Mint still on Ubuntu base or Debian now? Out of curiosity I installed Cinammon on Zorin 8 and killed it!

So for the time being I'm using PearLinux 5 until 9 comes out.

I'm glad that you liked it. Me too I'm waiting for Zorin 9 LTS For Linux Mint, it is based on Ubuntu and Debian (the LMDE edition)

Brahim wrote:This is myy concept Zorin OS 9 (the desktop in the screenshot is Cinnamon 2.2 + Zorin OS white/Black cinnamon theme which looks and behaves exactly like AWN dock and the yellow box is a netspeed applet which after I talked to its developer detects network interfaces automatically)

Wallpaper: http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/ZorinOS9?content=164727

Hi Brahim,

how did you get Cinnamon to boot, did you remove AWN first?.

No you don't have to remove AWN just install it and choose Cinnamon from the login screen men!

Hi Brahim,

I tried it but AWN still booted, I assume I must stop AWN from starting in the startup applications manager?.

Hi Wolfman - did that happen even changing to Cinammon from the gear as Brahim advised?

I'm having some issues in booting Pear 5 so next week I will be getting round to 8.1 Core and perhaps start writing towards that manual!

Hi Swarf,

yes it did indeed!.

Hi Wolfman, How about this? (Pear al a Zorin! ):

Maccabbeo started this thread in May and I want to comment on the original topic before the thread veered. I understand his issue and the dedicated Zorin users who replied may be too close or too invested in Zorin to relate. I started in the DOS days and progressed through all of the Windows versions through 7. I started looking at Linux just a few months ago, driven by Microsoft -- their dropping support for XP (I keep an old XP computer around for compatibility with old hardware and software), their "abuse" of Win 7 in transition to Win 8 (even some Microsoft software no longer runs on Win 7 as currently patched), and Win 8 (which has no need to exist except for users of touch screen devices). I researched the various Linux distros and actually skipped Zorin because it has a tiny base and because the couple of paragraph reviews and descriptions provided by third parties didn't adequately explain what Zorin offers. I went with Mint. Now a seasoned Linux veteran with a whole month of Linux experience, I'm exploring other distros out of curiosity. I wondered whether there might be a distro that my wife (a long time Windows user but not computer savy), would be happy with. I took a second look at Zorin, at least its own web site and a few postings on this forum for flavor. Let me share a perspective.

I'll share a few observations at two levels. I'll save Zorin, specifically, for last and start with (Ubuntu-based) Linux in general because Zorin can't really be separated very far from the core on which it's based. Part of the transition from Windows to Linux, with any distro, is the difference in the two environments.

Linux reminds me of the "big cities" in the American West in the frontier days. There was a veneer of gentility and refinement under which was a rough and tumble environment. The American West in those days wasn't for the feint of heart or the pampered, you had to pretty much take care of yourself and get help from your neighbors when things got bad. That's Linux today. Windows was built to appeal to non-computer people (Apple even more so). Most Windows (and Mac), users just want to turn on the computer and have their software work. With Linux, you can't go very long before you have to get under the hood and tinker, even to accomplish tasks that are supposedly automated (like getting certain software to work after you install it from the software manager). Most Windows users go their whole lives never having to use the command line.

Windows users understand the concept of beta versions of software. They assume software is ready for prime time. If it isn't, it is labeled as a "beta" version and comes with a warning that everything may not work right. When a new version of Windows comes out and some things don't work on it, users get pretty bent out of shape. In general, developers have a target list of features. Features that aren't ready at release time are saved for the next version and advertised as "coming attractions".

With Linux, everything is a work in progress, a beta version except for what is still an alpha version. No software is ever finished. All features intended for eventual implementation are advertised as existing in the current version. Software known to be buggy or to not work at all (e.g., some of the menu editors bundled with Mint and apparently AWN in Zorin), are bundled as critical parts of the operating system, without immediate plans to fix it. And while some users complain, it is accepted as the normal course of business in Linux. The entire Linux world is constantly in a state of development and what end users get are the beta and alpha versions. There seems to be an assumption that if you are using Linux, you are an experienced computer person and an automatic volunteer as a tester. The whole concept of a repository of tested software, downloaded and maintained under controlled conditions, seems to prevent BSOD system crashes. However, much of the software (including portions of the operating system), doesn't work to some degree (and that is fully expected and accepted by the Linux community). There are no "civilian" end users and the Linux community is not yet evolved to support them (and the culture is to not go in that direction).

There are no user manuals. For most applications software, a typical user manual is a web page that lists the name of the program, a general description of what it is supposed to eventually do (everything is a project that occasionally gets dabbled with), and a list of the developers. Click on the on-screen help and it takes you to that web page. For the operating system, itself, there seems to be one dedicated sole for each distro who is "working on" a manual. Hasn't anyone in the Linux community heard of wiki? If there aren't the resources to document anything, at least let any dedicated user contribute to producing something. I found a long forum post by Wolfman that describes the basics for Zorin Lite, which I assume is as close as anything to a user manual if somebody stumbled across it.

My final observation brings me to Zorin. Windows users either accept what Microsoft provides (what choice do they have), or they get detailed pre-sales information before wiping their old OS to install a new one. Between Microsoft and reviewers, there is extensive information available on which to make a decision, such as whether to replace XP with Win 7 or Win 7 with Win 8. Linux relies on the "just try it" approach. Take the time to download and burn an iso and then try it. There are hundreds of Linux distros, which can be narrowed down some based on broad categories and reviews. Within those are choices of desktop flavors. A person can spend a lot of time and go through a lot of DVDs using a trial and error approach. Some detailed information is needed about the choices. When I tried Mint, their web site has a fair amount of information on each flavor so I had a basis to select what I wanted to try.

I came to the Zorin web site. I learned that there are many desktop emulations available, some in the free version and additional ones in the premium version. OK, let's try out the free version of Zorin and decide if I like it. Well, there are three free versions: Core, Lite, and Educational. I'm just guessing that "core" contains the listed free desktop emulations (this isn't explained anywhere). Roaming this forum, I learned that Lite is Lubuntu LXDE. I can just go to the Lubuntu web site to get that. Is this customized in some way to "Zorinize" it? No information. The Educational version? Can't find a word describing what it is. Maybe I can learn something on the download link. Well there, two other choices are presented but not the Core, Lite, or Educational. I can download LTS version 6 or current version 8. Browsing the forum, I found mention of a version 9 RC. What's the difference between the versions? Not a word describing it. The web site describes a general philosophy of what Zorin is about. Zorin Lite appears to be outside the concept of Zorin, more of a convenience for owners of old, resource-poor hardware. How do the other offerings relate to the Zorin home page and tour? No information.

I'm computer savy and now know just enough about Linux to be a danger to myself and others. I haven't got a clue what to download. Zorin's whole focus is to be Linux for Windows users, or at least a transition. How would a typical Windows user make sense of Zorin's public face? And even if they just randomly picked something and installed it, where would they get documentation on how to use it? Zorin provides none of the resources that most Windows users would need in order for Zorin to be a practical alternative to Windows. Zorin isn't really Linux for Windows users, it's a hobby for some IT folks playing around with what a Linux for Windows users might look like. I don't mean that in a bad way. Zorin may have the most Win 7 looking desktop, but that doesn't go very far in making it an alternative for most Windows users. Each version of Windows has changed the desktop and Windows users easily adapt. Any of the common Linux desktops is close enough that this is not the deterent for Windows users trying Linux. If Zorin really is intended as an end-user product, you need to incorporate the target end users' needs or it is just another Linux experiment.

Hi everybody.

Well, now; I've gotta disagree with SimonVM's assertion that the average Windows user just accepts whatever he's given, and puts up with it.

I used Windows XP for almost its entire 13 year run. During the last few years of its life, the 'average' Windows user looking over my shoulder wouldn't have recognised it.....he'd have likely thought I was a refugee from planet Zog!! I customized, and hacked the hell out of my system; the very same system that is now running Zorin OS 8.1 Ultimate 64-bit AND Ubuntu 14.04 LTS in dual-boot configuration. I have 'Precise' Puppy on a 32-Gb flashdrive, I have Lubuntu 14.04 32-bit running on an ancient Dell laptop (which is now way more snappy than it was, even when it was running a brand-new, squeaky-clean version of Windows 2000!!!)...and to top it all off, I'm experimenting with the Zorin OS 8.1 Core OS, inside Virtualbox, which is installed on the Ultimate version.....


As far as what my desktop looked like. I was running Winstep's Nexus dock, with my own customised set of pop-up 'sub-menu' miniaturised windows whenever I clicked on a dock item. I was also running SysMetrix, which for those of you that don't know, is a series of 'skinning' apps for presenting system info in different ways; the clock LOOKS like a chronograph, until you look closer, and realise that those little dials are actually showing CPU load, temperature, RAM used, HDD capacity, etc, etc. All great fun.

(I would show you a screenshot I took, but I CANNOT for the life of me make it appear in the post.....and I've tried just about every option; copy & paste, insert image, upload attachment.....nothing works.)

The point being, that I don't think I would EVER describe MYSELF as 'your average Windows user. It's why I moved over to Linux, or part of the reason.....because it is SO configurable. You can change everything, given enough time, to suit your requirements. And I DO love playing around with it...!

@ fixer1234. Well firstly I cannot speak on behalf of the Zorin brothers, but their intention was to help users of Windows make a transition to GNU/Linux. There have basically always been 'two camps' - KDE and Gnome. The former it could be argued had a more Windows-esque feel to it but in terms of all round functionality, Gnome had the upper hand (until Gnome 3 came out!). You haven't stated what type of desktop your wife would live with - you will be hard-pressed to find an alternative to GnoMenu which Zorin have tweaked to become 'Zorin menu' - basically the difference between Ultimate and core is that there are a lot of additional software which you could install yourself but they have saved you the trouble of searching for apps - that said the Software Center should make it easy enough for most folks to look under the different types of application by genre. If your wife wants win2k look then either Lite or Zorin educational would be the way to go - but you could easily get that with Core just by changing the Zorin menu for YAMA (Yet Another Menu Application) which can be put in place using the AWN (Avant Window Navigator) preferences. (see the current version of the manual that hints how to make changes of the applets).

If you want something light that is not Zorin then I would give you two options:
1. LXLE 12.04 (LTS) based on Lubuntu or

2. SolydK Business Edition (based on debian but uses .rpm (red hat package manager) for its applications - and it's aimed to be a continual 'roll-up distribution' with never a need to do a fresh install.

The assertion that GNU/Linux is aimed at the geek community is not strictly correct - the only reason why it has attracted a number of 'geeks' is that they have managed to get a system to work in spite and despite of a lack of drivers being made available by hardware manufacturers - take a look at 'stallman.org' sometime to get a clearer picture - and also take a look at John 'Mad Dog' Hall - who became insensed at Xerox creating proprietary drivers that could not be tweaked for his Unix system!

Swarfendor437, I don't disagree with what you're saying but my point was different. Among Ubuntu-based distros, Zorin might be one of the most Windows-like on the surface. My point was that the surface is immaterial (unless you're talking about something like Gnome's "Picasso"-style user interface that is pretty but more of a hindrence than a help in using the computer). The Windows interface has changed a little with each new version (ignoring Win 8). As long as the fundamental elements are there, Windows users quickly adapt. Zorin's "quick change" takes those fundamental elements, moves them around a little, and changes the cosmetics in order to emulate different desktops. Users have a preference for one or the other, and that's a nice feature for someone who will be using Linux anyway. However, nobody has avoided Linux because the desktop is cosmetically different. There are some fundamental issues that are what scare away users who aren't computer savy.

OpenSUSE KDE and Kwheezy make a serious attempt to address the real issues. It's not (just) the Windows-like KDE desktop, which you can find on countless other distros. These are extremely stable OSs, and everything works and works properly out of the box because it doesn't get into the box until it's tested and proven. There is plenty of user instruction and user manuals built-in and available. It isn't so much that any user expects to have a manual in one hand while they try to learn and type with the other, it's that if and when a question comes up, answers are available.

People try new things, but they do it one at a time. They might try a new browser and have to get used to a different user interface. They might try a new word processing program and have to get used to where all options and selections are. When they go from Windows to Linux, everything is a change, no matter how similar it is. They are hit with most of the software being different from what they are used to, plus substantive differences in things they have to do through the OS. A familiar user interface helps by not adding to the strangeness, but it isn't the fundamental problem. Non-technical users need hand-holding and reassurance, for confidence if nothing else. They need something that tells them in advance, in plain language, what to do and what to expect. And, at least as important, everything has to work and it has to work at least according to some rules that can be looked up if needed.

My initial experience with Ubuntu-based distros, some more than others but to a large degree in all, is that it is commonplace for things not to work. If you're a new Linux user in a "strange land", you can learn your way through the maze if everything works and you have some documentation. When stuff doesn't work and there is little or no documentation, it is just overwhelming to most Windows users. Further, most of the sparce documentation that does exist is in gibberish. The culture is that if you don't already know enough to understand this, you shouldn't be here.

Even the distros that are the most user-friendly to non-technical Windows users pretty much need a Linux person to do the initial set-up, if for no other reason than most users are afraid they might screw up their computer. In fairness, Windows comes already installed for most users, so Linux has an additional burden in attracting non-technical users. The thing is, there is no reason why Linux can't become an OS for the masses. It just takes an understanding of the needs of non-technical people and a focus on making it happen.

My point about Zorin is that if it really is intended to be the easy Linux for Windows users, the effort has gone into the wrong aspect. Start with a rock solid distro, like stable Debian or open SUSE (and make it trivial to install). Marry it with any desktop that is generally Windows-like (Zorin's is fine). Make everything intuitive and non-cryptic, with hover-help, etc. Bundle it with the most Windows-like software available (Zorin has done that part). And then create extensive, easy to understand, plain language documentation that is integrated into everything. Make it so that a technophobe understands exactly what to do to get started and exactly what will happen, and where to find ready answers to the questions that come up. Create tutorials. If cost was not an issue and users wanted to leave Windows, would most pick Linux or Apple? Why? That's your answer.

Well people with a conscience wouldn't choose the alternative to GNU/Linux!

https://stallman.org/apple

As for working out-of-the-box then go for LXLE but if you use a USB dongle there won't be many that will work due to dkms-source and something else not being present in most apps - due to the kernel that is present - so this has to be added in afterward.

Your answer about 'out-of-the-box' I already answered - and you agreed - about lack of hardware support - while ever there is 'Wintel' control over hardware you won't get much further - unless you buy one of these:

http://www.lemote.com/en/

In the meantime:

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v67233697bJ2bS9jm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2054

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7646

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4835

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6075

Various tutorial videos:

http://www.veoh.com/users/swarfendor437

http://vimeo.com/search?q=swarfendor437

and if ever you want some new wallpaper:

http://gnome-look.org/usermanager/searc ... n=contents

I forgot that users pick the OS for altruistic reasons.

Using a barebones OS is one way to minimize OS stuff that doesn't work. Now, what about all of the software you will run on it. How do you make sure that will work? If you stick with barebones everything it's an approach.

As a computer-savy user, I will do computer searches for an answer when stuff doesn't work or when I don't know how to do something. I would eventually find some advice, like your links, at least for OS functions. Wouldn't it be great if, at least for whatever posts are out there for specific issues, they were linked to some context-sensitive help? When a non-technical user tackles Linux, they expect a "Windows" experience. They want to use the computer to accomplish their business, not to learn Linux. They might do a search for the first problem, or the second. They rapidly reach a point where they feel that they're spending more time researching how to make stuff work than doing their business. Very little of the Linux applications software has comprehensive or even useful documentation provided with it. Three kinds of documentation are missing: how to use the features; which features won't work because they are described as features but haven't actually been implemented yet; and how to troubleshoot problems. Everything that doesn't work is another thing the new user has to deal with.

A couple of shining exceptions. At the barebones end, Puppy Linux. It is surprisingly user-friendly, with built-in, plain language explanations, and comes with bare bones software similar to the Windows free bundle. Most XP users who don't do anything fancy could easily use it (especially if it is already set up), and have fun doing it (and be amazed at how fast their old bucket of bolts is running).

At the other extreme is Kwheezy. It is the latest KDE desktop married to stable Debian and pre-bundled with everything but the kitchen sink in terms of software (all from the stable repository). For the typical Windows user, this, also, would benefit from a Linux person doing the initial install. It is loaded with documentation (including most of the software), although much of the OS documentation would intimidate a non-technical user. Everything, both OS and bundled software, works flawlessly out of the box. I tested software that I had downloaded from the Ubuntu repository and tried in Mint that I couldn't get to work and that had no documentation. It was pre-bundled, had documentation, and worked out of the box in Kwheezy. If a new user had to pick between Windows and Kwheezy pre-installed on their computer after trying each one first, a substantial portion would pick the Linux OS.

The point I was making is that Zorin's desktop is much more similar to Windows than Kwheezy's, but Kwheezy focuses on the substantive issues that are the real impediment to most users moving from Windows to Linux. If Linux is to have broader appeal as an alternative to Windows for non-technical users, there should be more of a focus on what non-technical users need; the real impediments to migration (that is, unless we want to keep the riff raff out).

OK friend, I can share with you a forum member from my local city forum who was facing critical issues due to XP expiring - he will never return to Windows/M$ - his business - involved in highly technical stuff has switched to - wait for it - Fedora! He is well chuffed with what he can accomplish - he just uses XP for non-essential off-line stuff so bang goes your argument on that one and this is someone who never used GNU/Linux before the XP deadline!

I had a converse experience using Puppy Linux on an old Notebook - it was a real pane to install - the derivative MacPup was much easier to install.

As for the altruistic assertion that is what Stallman is trying to remind people about - it is not just about free software but 'freedoms' in general - that is why 'GNU' seems to be forgotten about these days - none moreso than by Ubuntu itself which has the gall during boot to say Ubuntu with Linux. A far cry from when it was first launched as Ubuntu means 'I am because you are'. Stallman says that Open Source is NOT the same as Free Software. If I was truly altruistic I would not be on this forum - my concern is getting people of Windows on to something familiar - Freespire was very good (apart from the 'root' issue at boot) and outstripped Knoppix for Data recovery every time! Just its founder and CEO burned that dream! That is why I got involved in Zorin on the forum that existed before this one.

Remember this distro is put together by the brothers Zorin and just two more developers - so you have to give them credit - they are a young, and flourishing flavour of GNU/Linux that have not had the years under their belt of any other distro you could name.

OK, maybe there's no such thing as a "typical" Windows user.

Decades ago, I had a small computer business that pretty much catered to non-technical people. This was in the early days of the IBM PCs and compatibles. There were a lot of people with absolutely no technical knowledge and they were looking for a tool to help them do their job. MS-DOS and early Windows were really the only game in town (Apple pre-dated this stuff but, at that point, didn't have anything that you could run a business on). Their needs were very different from those of people with technical backgrounds, and the way people in, say the humanities, think is different from how technical people think. At that time, if you wanted to use a computer, there was quite a learning curve for these people but there was no alternative. Many professions, from writers to lawyers to teachers, etc., had grown to adulthood without ever having been seriously exposed to computers.

Skip ahead a few decades. Apple and Microsoft made it possible for people like that to become proficient at playing and doing their work on computers without ever really worrying about what goes on under the hood. All they really had to learn was how to navigate their applications software. It's all visual and pretty intuitive. Turn on the computer, click on the application you want to use, and use it. And for the most part, it works. If they have a question, click on Help and an entire, detailed, plain language user manual is available. If they stumble across a few technical words, they don't look them up or search the Internet for answers. Their eyes glaze over and they figure that if they need to understand it, it's not important because they're never going to understand it. These are the people I'm referring to.

Now look at the Linux "industry". There are a few big players backed by big organizations and teams. They have complex processes for bringing software to users and, to some extent, to create documentation for the technical users. Then there are hundreds of small players. These individuals and tiny teams turn out some amazing work, and it's recognized and valued within the Linux community. The community of Linux users is almost exclusively tech-savy people with a hands-on orientation. They aren't intimidated by the hurdles of becoming familiar with Linux. For many, playing with Linux offerings is as important as using it to get their work done. There are people like this in the Windows world. They are the beta testers, power users, and people with technical backgrounds. Those aren't the people I'm talking about.

For the most part, the Linux world is of, by, and for Linux people, who are virtually all either technical or have an unusual thirst to learn technical things. It's not that different from the world of gamers in that there is a pre-selection for who has an interest, there is a language that only they speak, and if you are a "civilian", there is a learning curve that discourages getting involved unless you have a strong incentive or interest. For most people, there is a real requirement to use a Windows computer--they have a job to do and the world is Microsoft-based. There is no critical reason to jump the hurdles into Linux; using Linux is an option for those with an interest. For the non-technical people, even if you force them to leave the Windows they are familiar with, by say ending support for XP or Win 7, they would rather spend the money to upgrade to a different Windows or to Apple than to do or learn anything technical to use Linux.

The world of Linux today is not a friendly place for non-technical Windows users. The kind of environment and the type of support they need just doesn't exist. If they have a specific incentive to try Linux, the only distros with the necessary support infrastructure are the big boys, and even they are not focused on these kinds of users. Small operations like Zorin just don't have the resources to create a computing environment that coddles users in the way Windows (or Apple) does. These users are scared witless of change in general or anything technical, and they have near zero tolerance for things that don't work, esecially when they are trying to learn it. For these users, any distro based on Ubuntu is probably not a good fit because too many things don't work. They need something based on a super-stable package where everything works perfectly out of the box. On top of that, you have to layer extensive support and comprehensive, easily accessible, plain language documentation.

There is a group of these users with trivial needs. They are still using an XP computer, running Microsoft Works and Outlook Express. That and whatever browser they are familiar with is pretty much all they need or want. For them, one of the tiny, memory-resident distros can be the answer. Those contain little to not work (once set up). After installation, they never have to deal with the OS, and the software is simple and familiar. There is very little to learn and they don't need any technical knowledge. The speed they get running everything in memory makes it fun to use and offsets the fact that they have to deal with change.

My post wasn't intended to denigrate Zorin. It was really about the world of Linux in general and a very large population of Windows users that Linux won't attract or keep without evolving into something that offers a different focus to address the needs of those users.

Hi, Now you have made things a bit clearer, I understand where you are coming from - my experience as a TU activist I was introduced to a screen with "C:/" - I had to ask a full time official what to do next. "You type in 'win'" - that's what led to my first machine being an Amiga (the brand that brought you Wallis and Gromit animations from Ardvaark studios right here in Sheffield (A Grand Day out). I purchased an Amiga 1500 (which I still have) and was able to do DTP with only 1 Mb RAM - the downside to this was waiting 20 minutes for one sheet - but it was worth it! I then 'progressed' to Windows 95 and taught myself (with no manuals) how to create interactive spreadsheets (MS Office 95 Professional), concatanation of cells in with no formal training - I like to explore - I am a desktop user NOT a power user - so perhaps I am not scared - I used to be - I was too scared to build a hybrid PC with an Amiga and cancelled my order for the PC half - especially when you got a host of warnings that it may not work - if I had the cash I would purchase the special build Amigas from Germany but at £1,900 they are expensive (but probably more worth it than an Apple - but that is my perspective - the best Amigas had Motorola chips which meant you could not only connect to PC but also emulate a Mac! )
Now it does not bother me at all to wipe a drive and start a fresh - once most people have done this they should feel confident in being able to tackle anything!

I'm a Windows XP and 7 user (and Win98 before that) but not going near Windows 8. So I'm a newcomer to Linux, still trying out different distros. I join and use the forums mainly for advice and help (and am constantly impressed by those who give so much time and attention to troubleshooting other people's problems). So I rarely look at "chatrooms" and only came across this thread by chance.

I read all the posts with interest, but especially the thoughtful contributions by fixer1234 (is he still around?). Time and again I found myself nodding in agreement, or recognising in his posts accurate reflections of my situation or my feelings. Much of his commentary was about the world of Linux, rather than Zorin specifically - but no less relevant for that.

In particular....

- the Linux world really isn't thinking very much about the wider end-user community (or the customers, in capitalist-speak). Maybe that's because it's free? Because Linux OSs don't see their primary need, or their survival, as dependent on satisfying customer demand (as reflected in sales....) , Linux OSs tend to reflect what the makers like, rather than what the users need. Or as fixer1234 said, most Linux OSs "....are not for users, they are a hobby for IT folks...".

- I also had to smile when fixer1234 said "in Linux, everything is a work in progress". There is never a finished article with a lifespan in years.

- as a result, the Linux world is still rough and tumble, suck it and see, try anything, run-it-up-the-flagpole-and-let's-see-who-salutes. Confusing to newcomers and outsiders, probably intimidating to many. Although choice is wide and customisation more or less infinite, this can induce a kind of paralysis, or brain-fade, in those many people (I may be one) whose main priority is that the OS should be easy to understand and operate, and should work reliably and flawlessly; if it looks good, that's a bonus...

- most of all, I saw myself reflected in this passage from one of those earlier posts

When a non-technical user tackles Linux, they expect a "Windows" experience. They want to use the computer to accomplish their business, not to learn Linux. They might do a search for the first problem, or the second. They rapidly reach a point where they feel that they're spending more time researching how to make stuff work than doing their business. ......... Everything that doesn't work is another thing the new user has to deal with.

I like challenges and problem-solving, and have a common-sense if not high-tech approach, whether it's making the computer work or fixing the washing machine. So I have not been deterred by the occasional glitch or obstacle in getting to grips with Linux distros, and have appreciated the help offered through the forums. But this thread has offered much food for thought. In a way, this world of computer OSs (Windows, Apple and Linux) is analogous to the world of motor cars (I confess to being a bit of a car-enthusiast).

- Microsoft is the Ford or General Motors of the software world: churn the product out in huge volume, be very clear about customer desire and needs, and give them what they want with only very limited options to specify the GL or Deluxe spec. The drivers will want the ride to be comfortable and the controls user-friendly. Just don't expect the users to do anything under the bonnet except top up with oil, water and antifreeze (= "update"). Anything else, call the mechanic or take it to the garage (and pay for service).

- Apple is the BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or Bentley/Rolls. The product looks superb - slick design, smooth operation, perfect finish. It costs a premium price. It's gloriously easy to drive. Neither maker nor user expects it to go wrong, and no user would want to mess with either the engine or the styling. The products will go on for years, and the owners will be fiercely loyal.

- Linux is - well - it's the world of the custom car, the hot-rod, the souped-up racer, the saloon with go-faster stripes, the 4WD with fat tyres and suspension lifted. The chassis and engine underneath many of these may be familiar. But the range of styles and appearances, the extent of performance tuning, and the air-brush artwork, is absolutely astonishing. This entire community has a few key things in common. The owners/enthusiasts do this first to please themselves, and second to impress their fellow-enthusiasts. They may share their insights and their techniques with relish. But their aim is not to see thousands of others driving exactly the same car. The other point is that the priority is often how fast it goes, not how far it goes; or how good and shiny it looks, not how well it copes in the rain and snow.

So while the production Fords roll on (boringly?), and the Mercs and BMWs glide by, it's the Ferraris, the Lotuses, and the customised vehicles with the go-faster stripes and the furry dice hanging from the rear view mirror that tend to be on the hard-shoulder with the owner turning the start-key in vain or staring perplexed at the engine....

Sound familiar? I'm sure others can develop the parallels even further. Some custom-tuning goes mainstream (Mini-Cooper, Shelby Cobra) and earns respect. But there are garages all over the world with interesting car-projects where owners have run out of time, imaginative tweaking has run out of steam, or frustration has set in; and people have abandoned them and turned to something which will get them from A to B - and back - without fuss, drama or any fiddling under the bonnet.

Which was basically fixer1234's point. Most people just want an OS that works - every time, all the time - without any pre-tuning or mechanical tweaking. Whereas most Linux distros are dedicated more to playing about with the chromework and the paint-job or the leather seats than making sure the engine runs smoothly and the wheels don't fall off. Once users have a product that they are confident won't break down or crash within the first few months, they are likely to keep it and may want to personalise it. They won't want to be urged instead simply to trade it in for the new model which has just been released and is bound to be better.

My own experience is a good example. I have now test-driven about half-a dozen Linux distros. Each has had its attractive features (in terms of "showroom appeal"). Some have had a more familiar display than others. I have usually managed to adapt to the controls. But all have failed the drive-away reliability test in one way or another. Some simply wouldn't start (in laptops with non-pae processors). Some wouldn't connect by wifi (headaches with Broadcom drivers). Some had real problems working with my printer/scanner (a mainstream Canon) and needed much "tuning". On one of my computers a Linux distro (yes - it was Zorin) wouldn't display the min/max/close buttons on the top right of each opened window nor the search box and shut-down buttons on the Start menu...

I still want to drive Linux. But I want to find a model that offers (a) absolute reliability, (b) reasonable longevity, (c) user-friendly controls, (d) decent performance and 'road-holding', and (e) low, or simple, maintenance. Only after I am assured of those essential features might I be interested in looking at the paint-job and styling (ie the appearance or desktop-environment).

Am I looking for the unattainable?

br1anstorm - Looks like I still get alerts on this thread. You are missing (f) in your last paragraph. You can get (a) through (e). However, it comes with a price. The way (a) and (b) are achieved is through a stable version. Nothing gets in until it's been thoroughly tested and virtually bug-free. That is a long, formal process and once something is incorporated, it hangs around for a long time. Which brings you (f), availability of current releases of software. "Once something is finally incorporated, it hangs around for a long time" cuts two ways. You want the latest version of Firefox, which works with all of the web sites built using the latest development tools? That's a problem. The latest version available in the stable repository will be carbon dated to sometime in the last ice age. You have to start making tradeoffs, loading current versions of software you need from other places, which starts to defeat (a) through (e).

I take your point, fixer1234. There is a constant tension, if not contradiction, between wanting stability, reliability and longevity while still enabling innovation and evolution.

The way I look at it is - first, get the fundamental platform absolutely solid and bomb-proof (in car terms, don't keep changing the wheelbase or the engine block!). Then enable people to tune and refine what goes onto that platform (twin carbs, fuel injection, different exhaust, fancy paint job). And before releasing any changes (=updates), test them extensively and rigorously so that any changes are proven beyond doubt.

The difficulty at present are that Linux tuners (=distro developers) are tweaking and refining for one model, only to find that the 'manufacturer' (Ubuntu or whoever) is busy changing the fundamental platform (12.04 to 14.04 etc) onto which they are trying to attach their refinements. So it's not surprising that some stuff doesn't run, doesn't fit, or doesn't work - and the developers are having constantly to play a game of catch-up.

There are signs that some in the Linux world are beginning to realise this. "Long Term Support" versions of distros are one way to try to address this point. I believe Linux Mint, for example, has just said they won't issue a new Mint release every time the underlying Ubuntu OS brings out a new version or variation, but will base all Mint OSs for the next 3? years on 14.04.

The other way - which I confess I rather applaud - is "rolling release" distros. Decide what your basic design or achitecture (the chassis!) is going to be, and then apply a process of constant refinement and improvement. The OS looks and works the same for years, performance upgrades and operating improvements are added incrementally (ie on a rolling basis) and only via approved repositories and after thorough testing. I suppose it's a bit like the Porsche approach: the 911 has looked virtually the same and had the same basic configuration for decades. But put an early model next to the latest one: the latest version has all the latest tech attributes and contemporary high performance and is vastly improved. But it is still recognisably a 911, still based on the same structure and layout as the original.

In Linux terms, I tend to regard PCLinuxOS as one of the best examples I have found so far of this rolling release approach. It may not look "cutting edge", and its styling probably doesn't immediately appeal to all. But it prioritises reliability and stability. I do like Zorin, and it's one of the most user-friendly of the distros I have tried. But as someone who just wants an OS which works without hassle, and not a serial distro-hopper, I'm coming to the view that PCLinuxOS (even though it looks different from Windows XP or 7) may be a better bet. The jury is still out - but that's the way I am leaning at the moment.

I can say it in three simple words.....

[ Evolution of Change ]

Going back to the OP, the main issue that also struck me when I made the switch, was the lack of more "formal" documentation than I had been used to with Windows. But then I thought about it somemore. When was the last time you had a serious manual with a Windows distribution? Mine was 3.11! Since then you have had to know someone who knows, search the web (not so easy on dial-up in the early 00's) or tinker based on what went before (first job on a new release - find where they moved DOS prompt and Windows Explorer this time ). Microsoft online help is okay, but not brilliant. But wait, one way of the other, I have paid Microsoft for the privelage of using their OS and yet their support offering (not even going to touch on the actual OS itself) is poor.

Linux also doesn't have the manuals and yes some of the "official" documentation can be highly variable BUT then I haven't paid for the privelage of a product I may need to get help with. And forums...!* In many ways they make Linux so much less daunting than at first glance. It is the real strength of many Linux projects, Zorin included (back to praising the Holy Two!). Of course this was also a downside in the early 00's with dial-up so XP won out then.

I am not disputing that the documentation is an issue - it is - but I haven't known it be better in Windows.

* - and yes, I am aware of good forum work in the Windows community e.g. There are good forums e.g. http://www.sevenforums.com/

Well I have been working on a Manual for Zorin 6 with another forum member who has technical manual expertise but I have had personal issues over Christmas concerning the right-off of our motor car (whilst parked on the drive of our house!). The spruced manual needs sprucing some more to make it streamlined - in the meantime see here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7646

Unfortunately the .pdf that was the last update in English would not upload properly and the German one down the list moved up to where the English one is! So only available in .odt (LibreOffice/OpenOffice format).

Swarfendor437 wrote:Well I have been working on a Manual for Zorin 6 with another forum member who has technical manual expertise but I have had personal issues over Christmas concerning the right-off of our motor car (whilst parked on the drive of our house!). The spruced manual needs sprucing some more to make it streamlined - in the meantime see here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7646

Unfortunately the .pdf that was the last update in English would not upload properly and the German one down the list moved up to where the English one is! So only available in .odt (LibreOffice/OpenOffice format).

No pressure!

I thought I would add my two cents to the discussion. I'm a long time user of Windows, Ubuntu, Red Hat and Zorin. My best experience is with Zorin. The help is the best, Wolman and Swarfendor437 are the best. The help is interactive, fast and they won't leave until the problem is solved. Ubuntu is also good because of the large knowledge base in their forums, but all the changing desktops, Unity, forks and other noise makes it time consuming to find what I want. Google search is pretty good for specific topics but it is hard to get individualized help. Windows, well what can one say. Little to no personal support. Their web forms with certified experts isn't bad, but quality is mixed. Still, I gotta use it to be compatible. Red Hat is good if you can buy commercial support and are enterprise or server focused. For a desktop Zorin is my favorite.

I also bought a copy of Crossover to run Office so I can do what I need to in Office to communicate with clients with assured full compatibility. It also allows me to run other Windows programs if I need to. More and more I take the time to learn Linux equivalents because someone is willing to help you custom configure the programs if you need to. For Windows COTS applications, forget doing that without paying a big price. Any OS has some bugs and problems. The question is what provides the best usable, user friendly experience. For me it is Zorin.

all the best
Jojo

Hi jojo, You may be interested in Kingsoft Office - it does not have a Publisher or Access equivalent (the latter is covered by Base in LibreOffice) but it has the look and feel of Office 2007+ with the ribbon or you can choose the traditional (2003) look. The only downside to both Kingsoft Office and I suspect M$ Office is that accessibility tools in GNU/Linux such as the screen reader will not work with them - that is where LIbreOffice performs best in respect of Accessibility! (Oh and LibreOffice now supports Visio documents! ) One other mod you forgot to mention - madvinegar - for wireless issues - HE'S THE MAN!

to go back to the original point:
- Most people on win_xp - rarely change anything.
- they don't add anything deliberately, - spam-ware does that for them.
so - some PC guru has to remove it for them.

so - in that context - Zorin would fit the bill, nicely.
ie: they won't change anything & there would be *no* spam-ware to fix up.

These people are what the Zorin Team are catering to.

Hi Swarfendor437. Thanks for the tip about Kingsoft Office. I'll check it out.
Also, sorry I forgot to mention madvinegar, he did respond helpfully to my earlier posts and I would like to express my appreciation. I'm sure he would be equally helpful now if my present issues related to what he covers. All the mods here are great and provide a competitive edge for Zorin compared to other distros. I know they are one reason I feel connected and loyal to Zorin. Please keep up the good work.

all the best
Jojo