JeffK969 wrote:Maybe Schiff and you can discuss the spin the next time you sit down for dinner or Skype.
This is interesting. You accuse me of Spin, and then you do this:
JeffK969 wrote: And I will quote you “Because Trump DID collude with Russia.” & “He absolutely 100% did. He admitted that he did. The Mueller report shows clearly that he did with hard evidence in paperwork, phonecalls, meetings...”
Mueller report. Very top of page 2: “the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”
Now, I will include a quote from me:
Aravisian wrote:What Trump was NOT shown to do was commit a Conspired Plan with Russian.
What happened there?
JeffK969 wrote: I dismissed them because they are not true.
Evidence? You merely dismiss- while providing absolutely nothing to support your dismissal.
Above, your quotes was misleading.
JeffK969 wrote:And you tell me to look at myself? How dare you. That was out of line
See above.... and see below and see my very last reply in this post.
Everything I said was accurate and the link you provided- to the Meuller report which I provided to you, demonstrates the accuracy of what I have said.
Read Above. I stated- Clearly, In Black and White, that Trump DID collude with Russia. I stated, Clearly, and in Black and White< that the Mueller report stated that he did not engage in a conspiracy with Russia.
Do you know the difference between collusion and conspiracy?
Do you remember Rudy declaring repeatedly, "Collusion is not a crime?"
Trump and Trump Family met repeatedly with Russian Oligarchs, worked together and Colluded. However, there is no evidence that they
Conspired.What I said and what the report said are the same exact thing.
Let's go past page 1:
From the report:
- Code:
1.)Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges.
2.)Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference. The Office charged some of those lies as violations of the federal false-statements statute. Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying about his interactions with Russian Ambassador Kislyak during the transition period. George Papadopoulos, a foreign policy advisor during the campaign period, pleaded guilty to lying to investigators about, inter alia, the nature and timing of his interactions with Joseph Mifsud, the professor who told Papadopoulos that the Russians had dirt on candidate Clinton .in the form of thousands of emails. Former Trump Organization attorney Michael Cohen leaded uilt to makin false statements to Con ress about the Trum Moscow ro · ect.
3.)Manafort lied to the Office and the grand jury concerning his interactions and communications with Konstantin Kilimnik about Trump Campaign polling data and a peace plan for Ukraine.
4.)Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.
It goes on and on and as we go- I can pull out a LOT of Hard Evidence from the report. And if we start claiming the report is all lies, with its myriad of sources and resources, then we can say ANYTHING is all lies. It is not worth our sanity to go there.
I have read the report in full and I can tell you; it is very, very damning. However, it does establish as you suggest that some claims made prior to the reports release were not true. For example, Jeff Sessions was cleared of Conspiring in his meeting with Russian Officials. However, he was not cleared about lying about it. He did lie. And the mountain of lies surrounding it all is a big part of what made people suspicious.
The report is Fair.
The report goes on to point out that many facts could not be uncovered surrounding these issues- Facts that demonstrably could implicate the Presidents administration. It does not prove his guilt of Conspiracy- Nor did it clear him. It makes clear that there is much to doubt.
The link you just provided does not support your claim- At All. In fact, it states that the dossier was Correct in that claim.
I quote:
"Mr. Gubarev’s companies, the dossier claimed, used “botnets and **** traffic to transmit viruses, plant bugs, steal data and conduct ‘altering operations’ against the Democratic Party leadership.”
On Thursday, new evidence emerged that indicated that internet service providers owned by Mr. Gubarev appear to have been used to do just that..."
There is nothing there that says it was a "plant" and nothing there that shows NYT admitting to any such thing.
JeffK969 wrote:From the testimony of the Inspector General:
“We concluded that the Steele reporting played a central and essential role in the decision to seek a FISA order,” Horowitz said in his testimony. Horowitz also said: “I would not have submitted the one [FISA] they put in. No doubt about it. It had no business going in.”
There is nothing wrong with this- considering that your claim above that the Steel Dossier was a fabricated plant as admitted to by the NYT was 100% False.
It IS true that the Clinton Campaign hired Steele to Investigate and file a report. That report is the Steele Dossier.
JeffK969 wrote:So again, looks like you made an inaccurate statement. Your credibility is suffering. That‘s what happens when you are fueled by hate, you only see what you want to see.
You say this after claiming the above? I have just shown that what I said was accurate. I also showed that the link you posted does not support your claim in any way.
I could write an entire thread about WIlliam Barr. I will set that aside for now, not due to a lack of material but due to an excess of it.
JeffK969 wrote:Now let’s talk about Hypocrisy. And I’ll use your “They Have Been Convicted” for the basis of how blatantly one-sided it is.
6 Trump associates have been convicted in Mueller-related investigations -
Former Trump attorney Michael Cohen -Tax evasion, Lying to a bank, Campaign finance violations and Lying to Congress. He was also trying to sell access to Trump. He deserves to be in prison.
Our President called him a "rat" and a "snitch." Conversely, Trump was very kind in his words to Manafort, who refused to testify against Trump.
Cohen was found guilty for more than what is on your list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cohen_(lawyer)#Conviction_for_perjury_in_congressional_testimony
Particularly about the Trump Tower Moscow affair.
JeffK969 wrote:However - Clinton aid Cheryl Mills likely lied when they told FBI investigators they had no idea that their then-boss, Hillary Clinton, was using an illegal private email server. Both had communicated with Clinton about it. Also, why did FBI allow Clinton aide Mills to pose as Clinton's attorney and thereby be shielded from providing testimony on what she knew about the email scandal involving her "client." Investigators have swarmed Cohen's offices and residence, supposedly in fear that he might destroy pertinent records. Mills, nada.
I agree that Mills should not have been attroney for that client due to Conflict of Interest. However...
We have already covered this. The server itself was Not Illegal. That claim is parroting Trump.
The law shows otherwise. And I linked to all those sources.
It was in Violation of Policy that Clinton used the server for personal AND state affairs. (And probably the personal included discussing Bills affairs LOL)
Cohen was "proved" in court to have lied. You suspect Mills to have lied. You could be right that Mills lied, but you cannot say that the law is One-sided based on that when one was proved to have lied- A lot! and the other was not, you, a citizen of political persuasion, merely suspect that she did.
There is a great deal that Cohen was suspected of, but not convicted of, due to an inability to prove in court.
JeffK969 wrote:Paul Manafort - Conspiracy against the US, Tax evasion, Bank fraud, Hiding foreign bank accounts & Conspiracy to obstruct justice.
Rick Gates - Conspiracy against the US & Lying to the FBI - They both deserve jail. Please remember these crimes done prior to joining Team Trump.
However – Tony Podesta, brother of John, Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager, worked with Manafort and Gates. “Manafort and Gates both roundly acknowledged that they were in Yanukovych's employ, as did several Podesta employees. After the group's failure to disclose their foreign employers was reported in the media, Podesta amended their previous disclosures and provided details of their financial ties to foreign actors under FARA, and documented their lobbying in Congress and in the executive branch, according to CNN. Heck, nothing happened to him. He was given immunity to testify. How about that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/tony-po ... ia-2017-10
Agreed. Honestly, I think our justice system leaves much to be diesired.
JeffK969 wrote:George Papadopoulos – Lying to the FBI. 14 Days in Jail. About lying to the FBI plant.
Andrew McCabe – According to the Office of the Inspector General - “indicates that McCabe lied at least four times to federal investigators.” Heck, he gets a job with CNN.
Roger Stone - Lying to Congress, Obstruction of Congress & Witness tampering.
Witness Tampering. Not Small Stuff, there.
JeffK969 wrote:James Clapper, John Brennan lied under oath to Congress on matters related to surveillance.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... ear-later/Interestingly, it was the Evil Enemy of the People- the Media- that exposed and questioned Clappers comments. Did Clapper lie? I think so. However, I will admit publicly, I am more forgiving of a Lie to Protect National Security than I am in a Lie to Protect Russian Interference in our Elections.
But not by much. In the end, lying is still lying. Spying on us is not as forgivable as spying on Russia.
Heck, I m actually quite ok with spying on Russia.
Clapper and Brennen getting employed by CNN is inappropriate. I agree. That is... clearly biased.
But who knows, maybe it balances out the close ties between Trump and Fox News.
But the question remains: Why do supporters of Trump so easily believe- that for inexplicable reason- that the media is Ferociously out to get Trump?
Let's be brutally honest: Ken Starrs pursuit of Clinton raged harder.
What IS it about Trump that makes the Evil Media need to go after him so badly? What is he DOING that is Such a Threat? What is so scary that must explain why the media is supposedly going after him harder than anyone, ever before?
JeffK969 wrote:But the main question is, are you still my Pal..?
Yes.
Jeff, you admitted above to reservations about wanting to get into the argument. This is how most people are.
But I think that is a mistake. In arguing over the Big things, hashing it out- we cause ourselves to have to Examine our Positions, Question our assumptions, criticise our own beliefs.
This is one of the most important things a person can ever do. It is a great way to learn.
And it is also the one thing most people never want to do. Because it can raise emotions they think they should avoid. People generally want validation for their beliefs, not to question them.
We can disagree without foolishly stumbling into believing that the other person is The Devil for having the audacity to not agree.
In the last couple posts, each of us has accused eachother of things. Unpleasant- but Good. Being accused makes you examine yourself (or me examine myself). So this is "how dare I" because it is only through the forges the steel gains its strength. I cannot walk on eggshells and convince someone to examine what they hold to be true. But hammering them with facts might just get through.
So, I have another Friend... and I would prefer to not go greatly into detail... But the short of it is, he has written me into his Will. He also, is a Strong Supporter of Trump. He and I have argued about it.
Recently. I was thinking of a Christmas gift he would like- so I made him a MAGA keychain using high quality Titanium Tool steel.
)
