XFCE to become Microsoft Gnome.

Goodbye XFWM4 window borders.
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2020/01/xfce-4-16-client-side-decoration

I love how these article writers try so hard to lead The Reader to the conclusion that they want them to reach.
Essentially, it boils down to "We are going to do what we want, take away what you have and you are going to like it."

Let's read:

But before you cry tears over the loss of traditional app menus I should stress that the plan is to go full CSD, not full GTK header. It’s a subtle sounding difference, but an important one.

Essentially, it is creating the huge GTK header bars, but lacking the features and functionality that they offer. So it's the WORST aspect of the GTK3 headers and CSD. While GTK3 and CSD is more problem than solution, at least Gnome combined the titlebar, headerbar and toolbar into one to offer something for it. I still hate it.
But this? This is just the shell of it without having the bone tossed to us to keep us from growling. It makes no sense. And the author suggests that "before we cry tears?" Perhaps because we should be grabbing our torches and pitchforks, instead.
XFWM4 Is The Reason Many of Us Are HERE.

But on the other hand it could mean the end of xfwm4 themes — which some may miss.

Some may miss? Leading, much? MOST would miss. In fact, it is the very reason so many XFCE users switched away from Gnome and came to XFCE. SOME would miss? Who are they kidding?!
Marco is one of the Strongest Reasons for Mate/Cinammon making Linux Mint such a success is the Window Borders we can control, we can manage, we can decorate.
The article author is trying so hard to convince us to be happy to allow all that to be deprecated in XFWM for XFCE.

The benefits of switching to CSD for dialogs is rather clear: reduces wasted space

This statement is false. It cannot reduce wasted space when it is replacing the small window border with a HUGE FUNCTIONALLY USELESS header bar that is Much larger and does Nothing. At least the terrible Gnome3 Headerbar has buttons on it.

Word that Xfce is making major visual changes may sound scary

Translation: "We know you won't like this stupid change, but shut up and take it."
The author put fingers to keyboard fully aware that they were delivering Bad News and put a great deal of effort into trying to trick the reader into getting something out of it than the obvious "here's your shaft."


It really is bad enough that Mate, based on the continuation of Gnome2 went Full Gnome3 making excuses all the while. Mate, now, is mostly a superfluous desktop environment, bug ridden but at least it offers Marco, a window manager that allows us to kind of work with it. Face it, Marco is the only reason Mate Desktop is still around. It's fake gtk2 on GTK3 is no boon.
But now XFCE is considering becoming as superfluous as Mate but without even offering the Window Manager (taking that away) and without even offering the Full HeaderBar of Gnome (Which while contemptuous, is at least usable.) It offers all the worst of a Desktop Environment and none of the meager benefits that we had left?!
Talk about Bad Decision making. Talk about complete disregard of the User base. Talk about Poor Planning.
It Makes No Sense. "Scary?" No. STUPID.

All the development of XFCE 4.16 says is "XFCE is now a dead end and no longer a viable alternative to the Gnome-Trap. Time to look elsewhere."

We all need to shut up, give up, switch to Microsoft Gnome and learn how to just Take It.

Great post!!!

This is exactly what we need, people willing to talk about this. Its kind of similar to voting if you think about it. If people don't talk about it and vote, then the wrong people get elected in, and the wrong decisions are made for the country. If we don't talk about these changes going on with XFCE, and people don't speak up, then were going to lose XFCE.

Now you know full well that I've known about XFCE for about 3-years now. But I always used to think switching to XFCE desktop would somehow cause me to lose my current home folder and force me to start fresh like an OS install. I just lacked knowledge about the process is all. But I listened to you and took a leap of faith, and you know what? I landed on my feet.

We love XFCE because of all the customization abilities. Gnome is all about what they want and not what we want. However, classically, XFCE has been about what we want. When I switched to XFCE, I was able to pretty much fully customize the OS to my liking. XFCE is where its at, the best desktop for Linux.

If we lost XFCE, that would be like losing Linux. Because Microsoft is trying so hard to screw it up for all of us by destroying Linux brick by brick. They know that they can't compete against us with Windows, other then being still at the front in regards to gaming. But thats only because video game developers continually choose to support Windows and MAC, over the BS excuse that Linux, is only 3% of the user base. Thats a cop-out if you asked me!

First of all, video game developers are lazy and cheap. They don't want to spend the money and or the time to make their games commercially viable on the Linux platform. So companies like Valve, have to produce compatibility layers such as Proton, to make the games compatible, and not all are compatible at this time with Proton either.

At the end of the day, Linux is about having the choice to make our own choices about what we want, and XFCE fully embraces that policy.

XFCE Desktop with Linux is purely the best. And if you want to destroy Linux's chances of becoming a commercially viable solution that actually makes people think twice about Linux as a viable desktop OS, then you do get rid of XFCE. But if you want people to take Linux seriously, and market it so people actually know what Linux is, and get excited about buying a computer with Linux on it and XFCE, then you have to continue to support XFCE to the fullest.

Too many people don't even know what Linux is, cause all they know are Windows and MAC OS. Linux has been known as a hackers platform OS for far TOO long! Its time for people to get to know Linux as commercially viable desktop OS, both for in the workplace, and at home for the full multimedia experience.

One of the things that really bugs me about it is how these article writers for Gnome and For this- etc... They all act like this is somehow progress marching on. That we Must Update or Upgrade our systems to the new cr@p they are promoting.
This is simply untrue. It is not even misleading- it is outright false.

To put this into perspective, Microsoft windows has been using the same Window Management for over thirty years.
The Same.
Oh sure, it has gotten many improvements over the years, but the base has remained unchanged. If you liked WindowBlinds ten years ago- you can still like it today. And Use It.
"What? They haven't 'upgraded it?' "
Actually, they have. But the base remains the same. It works. After all... Cars have not been upgraded to no longer need wheels.
They still have wheels. Oh sure, they have made improvements to wheel design over the years... But the base principle of wheels remains the same.

You can clearly see the fallacy of pretending like making a change is some magical upgrade- or progress. No, it isn't. Progress is when you improve something. Not when you change it for the worse or take functionality away from it.
So... WHY do these developers want to push these changes on us?
It makes easier work for them to switch to client side decoration. It's less code to keep up to date. It's less support questions. Not by much- but every little bit helps. It allows them more control and allows us less. This helps them make development decisions for software and apps without having to take user decisions into account when creating it.
What other computer giant is known for being self-profit driven?
Oh Yeah... Microsoft. And even Microsoft doesn't take away the window manager.

This is akin to car makers switching over to building cars with frame and drivetrain only with Client Side Body. The only "benefits" are for some of the developers by giving them less work with more control. These authors trying to fool us into thinking we are getting a sweet deal should go work for Insurance companies.

And what these fools fail to realize is that their strongest User Base, their independent developers are all Self-Control Driven. (Ok, sure, they may just hope to drive Indie Developers out; they have already been doing that for years.) But, they are killing themselves, too, by trying to become more like Microsoft. Why bother with Linux if you get the same thing with Microsoft and at least Microsoft requires less brain cells to operate and still offers a window manager?
Microsoft is more compatible with hardware and gaming.
At the rate of change we are seeing, Linux will begin to lose users to Other Operating Systems because it will be harder to operate, have less developers and less support and be UGLIER than Microsoft products.

https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd

Just wish it was on Git Labs instead as M$ now wholly own GitHub.

Exactly right Aravisian!

In other words... Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

Or don't pee on my leg and act like you are doing me a favor, either.

Swarfendor437 wrote:Just wish it was on Git Labs instead as M$ now wholly own GitHub.

I agree and that is another trend that I have been following to great length in the news lately. The shift of MS toward Linux is disturbing and when you couple it with the trends we are seeing in Desktop Development... It is an easy connection to make.
In the meantime I have installed and tested it. With a slight tweak to my theme to switch out the titlebar with the toolbar background, it works like a dream.

https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=56169#p56169
[quote=ozjd][quote=ToZ]Providing rational, constructive feedback to the developers may help change this plan, if enough people do so. [/quote]
Seems that is unlikely given the response on the release mailing list to one of the developers who questioned the change. That may not have been the best place to raise it but the message was that it is happening.[/quote]
God, I hate being right...

https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2019-October/036689.html

We knew this would cause some stir(snip)

Translation: We knew you, the users, won't like what we are doing...

As for why GTK CSD are beneficial...

Translation: But we are going to do it, anyway. Like it. Like it hard.

Let's read:

1. They are natively supported by the toolkit. Any GTK application can
take advantage of them, and more will over time. This part of the code
is maintained by GNOME and will be supported and less prone to breakage.

While kind of true- it is also not necessary. This is simply a way of saying, "We want to dump responsibility for the software onto someone else."

It also means scaling just works.

This statement is simply misleading. Scaling currently works and even if improvement is viable, it is not necessary by any means to scrap the current configuration on favor of something the users do not want.

3. Consistency is *increased* since the decoration themes will always
follow the GTK theme.

What themes? Has anyone noticed how Gnome completely cracked themes into being Gnome Clones that just change colors?
It's all about the Gnome Brand Image.

This also opens the door for scenario-based
theming, such as dark mode or dark applications (think Parole as an
overlay / picture-in-picture video player). I've honestly been holding
back on this feature because of the expected backlash.

It shuts more doors than it opens and very few people like overlay. Instructions for turning the thing off is rampant on the internet. Mine is turned off and has been from the beginning.
When they- AGAIN- admit that they expect backlash, then they are admitting that they are forcing their wants on the users.

4. Consistency is increased for GTK applications. The fact is, there are
already CSD-based GTK applications, and there are applications that have
a fallback appearance for Xfce, etc. This increases the effort for
developers that want to support newer DEs and Xfce, and we're honestly a
much smaller user group.

Consistency is already present. XFWM4 is present- they plan to Drop it, not plan to increase consistency. Instead of Consistency, did he mean Consistently conforming to Gnome 3?
And consistency with Gnome is what we DO NOT WANT.
I mean, why bother with having XFCE at all if their plan is to just become Gnome? And we already know Gnomes plan.
Stick to Gnomes controlled Brand Image.

As for some of the concerns...

Huh boy...

1. Yes, *some* of our users are strongly against CSD layouts.

MOST Sean, Most. Try to be honest, ok?

This is definitely known.

Translation: But we don't care.

At the same time, this is not *all*

Translation: Screw' em.

and probably not even *most* of our users. In general, folks just want applications that
work and don't care about the window decorations.

Wrong. Did I not just suggest you be honest? "Probably?:" You don't know? Where does this assumption come from... "Probably...Ah, we just don't CARE. Who knows how many. Who cares."
This claim is demonstrably wrong given the activity and demand on themes. On DeviantArt, Openbox and the rest. Such an easily observed falsehood in his denial is Absurd. Reminder: Success of Linux Mint largely rides on User Controlled Window Management that it still offers through Marco and through XFWM.
If Sean admits, repeatedly, that he expected backlash, expect4ed it would cause a stir- why is he then claiming that MOST users are not going to be upset? Which is it? Speaking of Consistency....

Personally, I've only ever accidentally rolled my
windows up, then rolled them back down and disabled the setting.

Well, your argument above is that since you are "not all" or "maybe even not most" your own personal experiences don't mean jack. By your own argument above.

Can we fix or improve on some CSD pain points? Certainly. However, if we
continue pushing back against them fundamentally, we're never going to
and nobody else is either. Instead of outright rejecting the client-side
decorations, let's figure out how to effectively utilize them or fix the
remaining issues around them.

Translation: "We should adopt and join Gnome Standard and try to improve it instead of enjoying the improvements we already have and have been using."
Of course, as already pointed out-- This Claim is Very Misleading. It implies that CSD are "progress" and a step forward.
They are not. They are merely one way of doing something and it is a way that can be done better by using a different way. Again, Microsoft Windows has been using the same Base Window Management system for over a decade, with many improvements over the years, but not a replacement with something ugly that does not work well and never will. So there is your evidence that the claim that it Must be a Progressive Upgrade is complete and total Bunk.

What it IS, however, is the integration of all desktops into ONE desktop plan. It discourages independent development and creativity and is counter to what FOSS is all about.

Speaking of Microsoft... anyone notice how they own github, lately? You know... Just a random thought...

Here's to more constructive communication

Admit it: That is not what you want. You want us to accept your long winded speech about how what You Want For US is Good For Us.

NO.

I said above... before this... That the Stubborn won't listen. They will only push us to accept what they want for us.
This post and Seans response above Demonstrate That Without Doubt.

Thats right Aravisian, you preach the gospel buddy!

I would be the next person to step up and say, "Are you out of your vulcan mind?" And then I would say, "have you folks not been watching whats been going on at the Zorin OS forum lately?" I am sure that they would tell me that they have been too busy to look at posts there. Then I would say, "Well have a decent look at all the posts between Aravisian, SWARF, and I, about the theaming we been messing with, using Azenis on XFCE desktop."

Anybody who says that the majority of people just want something that works and doesn't care about theme customization, are deluding themselves. Yes, I know TOSS, a popular guy in the Linux community, just wants something that works with his Ubuntu Mate, and doesn't care about theaming much. But he's not representative of the majority. The majority want theaming!

I will let you guys in on a little secret. I go on winter break every single year, that means I have a lot of time to spend at home. And where am I at home most of the time? Thats right, on my computer. So, I would rather my OS not look like a 2-dimensional chessboard, if I am on it 12-hours a day. And as much as I like Zorin, I got to admit, things are looking pretty flat. lol

What I really love about XFCE, is that it allows me to customize my OS exactly how I want it. I have nice 3-dimensional glossy window borders and panel. I got the Azenis theme all over the place, talk about eye candy! And I even got an Azenis animated mouse curser, NICE! I would never want to back to Gnome styling at this point.

star treker wrote:Anybody who says that the majority of people just want something that works and doesn't care about theme customization, are deluding themselves.

It is interesting that Gnome Developers made that Exact Same Claim. Even went so far as to call anyone that enjoys customizing their desktop "nubes."
Right, so if they do not agree with their own personal P.O.V., they must be Nubes and it must be spoken in a derogatory manner. Never mind that most of these "nubes" have been using Linux for over ten years.

star treker wrote:What I really love about XFCE, is that it allows me to customize my OS exactly how I want it. I have nice 3-dimensional glossy window borders and panel. I got the Azenis theme all over the place, talk about eye candy! And I even got an Azenis animated mouse curser, NICE! I would never want to back to Gnome styling at this point.

Aw comon... Don't you want your Linux to look Consistent and Uniform?! Whatsa matter with you?

FOSS is not about individual creativity and expression, right?

Aw comon... Don't you want your Linux to look Consistent and Uniform?! Whatsa matter with you?

FOSS is not about individual creativity and expression, right?

Everybody drink the kool-aid and join the Stepford wives for conformity and consistency...................



CHECK PLEASE!
Runs outta town so fast, I burn rubber at 88MPH, they literally saw some serious shootmuckery as I launched myself into a different time period. Azenis here I come!

Let's hope that a breakaway xfce can occur like happened with Devuan that broke away from systemd.