Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Hello,

I purchased Zorin v12 Ultimate a while ago and would like to upgrade to v15; I understand I cannot do an in-place upgrade so would have to install it from scratch, but I've not found a way to download Ultimate 15 using my current license - Is this possible or do I really need to buy Zorin again?

Cheers,
Alan

Hi,

Artyom did state in an interview on DestinationLinux that it would not be a free upgrade - Others who have bought Ulitmate since release 7 have also queried a discount - I have already raised a PM to Team Zorin about this as it is quite a leap from €19 to €39.

Swarfendor437 wrote:Hi,

Artyom did state in an interview on DestinationLinux that it would not be a free upgrade - Others who have bought Ulitmate since release 7 have also queried a discount - I have already raised a PM to Team Zorin about this as it is quite a leap from €19 to €39.

Agreed on the 105% price increase. To be honest if it was €19 for v15 I'd be tempted, but at €39 I'll stick with v12 or even go back to Ubuntu.

I to would willing to pay v12 price for v15 but not $39. too rich for my blood. I will be sticking with v12.

From the Zorin OS website:
Scroll down to the last few lines.

"Direct upgrades from Zorin OS 12 to 15 – without needing to re-install the operating system – will be available later this year."
https://zoringroup.com/blog/2019/06/05/ ... connected/

Not sure if 12 Ultimate will upgrade to 15 Ultimate, wait and see.

@ukahg @johnk46 @MBMz10 Thanks for your posts and for your contributions to Zorin OS, they help us enormously to keep the project running for the benefit of all! I have just sent you PMs about this.

As a small team working full-time on Zorin OS, we could keep the project going and progressing over the past decade primarily because we've been able to pay the bills with the sales of the Ultimate edition. However, if you've been following the development of Zorin OS 15, you probably noticed that it has taken much longer than expected to get the release developed and this is due to the limited manpower we have for programming, documentation and support, amongst other administrative tasks behind the scenes.
The long-term goal would be to be able to hire more full-time developers to not only improve Zorin OS faster, but also contribute to upstream projects such as the kernel, Gnome, XFCE et al. We think this would accelerate progress towards our goal of making Linux accessible to as many people as possible in the general public.
In order to raise the funds to go on this path, we didn't want to make the compromises that other companies have done such as advertising or selling user data. We're aware that not everyone is able to pay money for Zorin OS – which is why we've made the Core, Lite and Education editions free – but having a sustainable way to fund the project can mean the difference between it thriving and it abruptly ending, like what recently happened to Antergos. Our plan over the next year will be to develop tools and services for business & government users of Zorin OS and generate revenue from them. This will hopefully allow us to avoid price increases to Zorin OS Ultimate in the future while still allowing us to achieve our goal and improving Zorin OS for everyone, but it will still require more resources than we have now to get there.

In addition, when we previously launched both Zorin OS 12 Ultimate and Lite Ultimate, there were many customers who were confused about the 2 editions and that they were purchased separately (2 X €19). With the new version, we've included both the full Ultimate and Ultimate Lite editions (which will be available later this summer) in the same bundle, so anyone who purchases Ultimate for their main computer would be able to use the Ultimate Lite edition on an old PC they might have. We've combined the 2 editions so you'd be getting both this time around.

Once again, thank you for your contributions, they really mean a lot!

I want to be sure I understand Zorin's position here. Because some people bought two copies of Zorin 12 for €38, you're now charging everyone €39 for Zorin 15 regardless of if they need or want a second license. You're also not offering any upgrade pricing, nor a way to do an in-place upgrade from 12 to 15. This might be understandable if I'd bought Zorin 12 three or four years ago and skipped versions 13 and 14. But I bought it 18 months ago and there have been no interim versions. Even if I thought this upgrade were worth €39 I wouldn't buy it, because for all I know you'll hit me up for €80 in another 18 months. I find the statement "thank you for your contributions, they really mean a lot" completely disingenuous. You might change that to "thank you for your contributions, but they really weren't enough!"

gavers wrote:I want to be sure I understand Zorin's position here. Because some people bought two copies of Zorin 12 for €38, you're now charging everyone €39 for Zorin 15 regardless of if they need or want a second license. You're also not offering any upgrade pricing, nor a way to do an in-place upgrade from 12 to 15. This might be understandable if I'd bought Zorin 12 three or four years ago and skipped versions 13 and 14. But I bought it 18 months ago and there have been no interim versions. Even if I thought this upgrade were worth €39 I wouldn't buy it, because for all I know you'll hit me up for €80 in another 18 months. I find the statement "thank you for your contributions, they really mean a lot" completely disingenuous. You might change that to "thank you for your contributions, but they really weren't enough!"

Firstly I'm not a spokesperson for Team Zorin but Artyom has explained the reasons quite plainly., Zorin 11 was the last 'development release. There will be no more single number iterations. Zorin LTS releases go up in 3s Zorin 6 was the first LTS in line with Ubuntu 12.04, Zorin 9 (Ubuntu 14.04), Zorin 12 (Ubuntu 16.04) supported until April 2021 and now Zorin 15 supported until April 2027. If you are finding it hard to swallow then simply get Core and add the applications that you want. I will be adding recommendations of Applications you can add to core in the current unofficial manual, I am working on. I'm a volunteer and moderating on this forum is detracting from me progressing with the manual. Apart from responding to posts where I can I also have to moderate posts before they can be submitted and removing forum spammers who have nothing better to do than be notorious P. I. A. s

Swarfendor437 wrote:Firstly I'm not a spokesperson for Team Zorin but Artyom has explained the reasons quite plainly. <snip> If you are finding it hard to swallow then simply get Core and add the applications that you want. <snip> I'm a volunteer and moderating on this forum is detracting from me progressing with the manual. Apart from responding to posts where I can I also have to moderate posts before they can be submitted and removing forum spammers who have nothing better to do than be notorious P. I. A. s

My post was in response to AZorin whose post directly above mine, so I'm not really sure why you felt the need to post this condescending reply whingeing on about your time management problems, and the issues you have doing something you volunteer to do.

Care to help as you seem to know more than I do!

ukahg wrote:Hello,

I purchased Zorin v12 Ultimate a while ago and would like to upgrade to v15; I understand I cannot do an in-place upgrade so would have to install it from scratch, but I've not found a way to download Ultimate 15 using my current license - Is this possible or do I really need to buy Zorin again?

Cheers,
Alan

It seems like a pretty easy question that can be answered "Yes" or "No".

If you purchased 12 Ultimate, are you going to need to buy Ultimate 15? Yes/No.

If you look at posts elsewhere, Team Zorin have offered discounts to long-time users - why don't you PM AZorin and request a similar outcome?

As someone who bought Zorin 12 Ultimate myself I am fully in favor of having some kind of upgrade pricing available. Just a suggestion from someone who has been using Zorin for a few years now.

Edit: And I did take up the suggestion Swarfendor437 mentioned. Thanks for posting that.

Previous PAYING customers shouldn't have to join a forum and beg for a discount. Zorin should proactively offer all customers who paid for 12 Ultimate a free (or significantly discounted, €5 max!) upgrade. The money Zorin could potentially make by milking previous customers (evidently, some even paid twice) for more money is far outweighed by negative things people have said and will say about Zorin's treatment of paying customers. I've commented on YouTube several videos featuring Zorin 15 saying how Zorin treats paying customers. I know I've convinced more than one person to stay away from Zorin. So not only did Zorin not get €39 from me, they lost potential new customers. My YouTube comments could have been different had Zorin decided to treat paying customers with respect. I could have been an advocate. I could have convinced people Zorin 15 Ultimate is worth paying for. I might have instead left comments praising Zorin's dedication to their paying customers. I might be using Zorin 15 now, talking about how much I like it. I might be recommending people spring for Ultimate. But no. I'm not using it. I tell people how I feel I wasted my money. I tell people don't use it. Don't buy it. When the next version comes out, Zorin will do to them what they did to people who paid for 12. I could have been an advocate, but I became a detractor because Zorin decided to try getting more money out of me instead of giving me value for the money I already paid.

Just a bit of advice for Zorin at this point... don't offer me a discounted upgrade, or even a free one. I'm a lost customer, and in fact giving me something now will lower my opinion further. And don't start offering buyers of 12 a discount on 15. The suckers who did pay for the upgrade will feel screwed, and you don't want to start refunding them. DO change your policy. Make it known that if you buy 15 Ultimate you'll get a free upgrade to the next Ultimate version. Use it as a selling point, that you'll stick by customers who stick by you. These days people expect free OS upgrades. When you buy Android you're guaranteed at least one major new release. iPhones get free OS upgrades for a long time. Windows and Mac OS both have free upgrades in perpetuity. No one expects to pay for each new OS release anymore. I paid €19 last year for Zorin 12. That's the first OS I've paid for in YEARS and only a year later Zorin is asking now twice as much to upgrade. That's unheard of.

@gavers - the difference is that with the new Ultimate fee you also get Lite version Ultimate too - it is not just the Core Ultimate on offer. People who have been longstanding Ultimate users from 6 on have received substantial discounts. And whilst you might get long updates for the other OS's you described I prefer one that I have control over - you don't have control over Google analysing your daily use, where you go or what you do. I stopped using Shazam after I learned Apple bought it out and records your conversations unknown to you. I'm also in the process of leaving Google Android for pure Android by using 'E' by Gael Duval.
To use Aravisian's argument in posts elsewhere - if you bought a 2016 VW Jetta would you expect a free upgrade to a 2019 Jetta when the 2016 was still good until 2021?

Swarfendor437 wrote:<snip> the new Ultimate fee you also get Lite version Ultimate too - it is not just the Core Ultimate on offer.<snip> if you bought a 2016 VW Jetta would you expect a free upgrade to a 2019 Jetta when the 2016 was still good until 2021?

Are you really this dense? "It costs twice as much because now you have to buy two versions at once." I don't want "lite". I'm not going to use "lite". It's like going to McDonalds and not being able to buy just a burger. They only sell meals. You want a burger? You're gonna buy those fries and a drink, too, whether or not you want them! And are you really comparing software to a car? Let's go with that... I don't expect a free Jetta, but I expect the dealer will take my 2016 as a trade-in. I give them my 2016 and I get a new 2019 for LESS money. But here the dealer not only won't let me trade-in my 2016, the 2019 costs twice as much as my 2016 did because I have to buy a moped with it. It's indefensible. And you have your head up your a*** if you think what you said is reasonable justification.

And whilst Windows 10 was free their one-drive suddenly started charging for game data - and UK Councils are facing Millions of £ on Windows 10 migration with fees set to double in 2025 so Zorin 15 is somewhat cheaper than a Windows upgrade. Each to their own. Besides 12 is worth using until 2021 - if you are competent GNU/Linux user then choose a different distro - that is one thing with GNU/Linux - you do get a choice - not so with Windows or Apple or Google.

Swarfendor437 wrote:And whilst Windows 10 was free their one-drive suddenly started charging for game data - and UK Councils are facing Millions of £ on Windows 10 migration with fees set to double in 2025 so Zorin 15 is somewhat cheaper than a Windows upgrade. Each to their own. Besides 12 is worth using until 2021 - if you are competent GNU/Linux user then choose a different distro - that is one thing with GNU/Linux - you do get a choice - not so with Windows or Apple or Google.

We get it -- you see nothing wrong with charging €39 for Zorin 15 Ultimate. But Microsoft charging for game data storage, and UK councils spending money on IT has f--k all to do with Zorin. I don't even know what you're trying to argue. McDonald's doesn't have onion rings because the UK has £2 coins and I did laundry on Thursday so let's all go to Subway.

I think Zorin should have proactively given buyers of Zorin OS 12 Ultimate a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate. You've given some excuses why it's ok for them to charge. But can you give a good reason why Zorin should NOT offer a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate (without the bundled "Lite" version) to people who recently purchased Zorin OS 12 Ultimate? (tell me why they have to charge, not why it's OK to charge)

gavers wrote:

Swarfendor437 wrote:<snip> the new Ultimate fee you also get Lite version Ultimate too - it is not just the Core Ultimate on offer.<snip> if you bought a 2016 VW Jetta would you expect a free upgrade to a 2019 Jetta when the 2016 was still good until 2021?

Are you really this dense? "It costs twice as much because now you have to buy two versions at once." I don't want "lite". I'm not going to use "lite". It's like going to McDonalds and not being able to buy just a burger. They only sell meals. You want a burger? You're gonna buy those fries and a drink, too, whether or not you want them!

What if McDonalds was offering the burgers, Fries and drinks FREE?
That's what Zorin does.
The Core version is 100% free.
Lite Version has always been free.
What you are Paying For with Ultimate is pretty much a Donation that you Choose To Give to keep the project going. And this is well known. There is no reason anyone ever felt like they had to buy Ultimate Version. It's very clear what Ultimate version is about.
Your analogy suggests that you can go to McDonalds, you get burger fries, drinks and everything Free, but if you want the Ultimate Burger Meal, you have to buy that. You COULD get them all free, but rather than assemble them yourself, you pay McD's to do it with Ultimate Meal Deal.
That's more like how Zorin works.

If you don't want to pay for the Ultimate Edition......... GET CORE EDITION.

And Zorin is Not Microsoft. Microsoft is a Billion Dollar corporation and Zorin is Two people.
Two People. What kind of miracles would you like?
So just because you think people feel entitled to get 'free stuff' does not mean that people really are entitled to Free Stuff. No, people are not entitled to sit around and gather up free stuff that other people sank 80 hours per week into.

Zorin 15 is not an Upgrade to Zorin 12. An upgrade is where you take an existing system and add new updated information to alter it.
If Zorin 15 was an upgrade to 12, it would not be called Zorin 15 and it would still be based on Xenial. It would be called Zorin 12.5. (And Zorin 12.1., 12.3, 12.4 upgrades were all Free.)
Zorin 15 is a New OS, not based on Xenial but on Bionic. You cannot upgrade Zorin 12 using 15. Zorin 15 is a Fresh New Installation.

gavers wrote:And are you really comparing software to a car? Let's go with that... I don't expect a free Jetta, but I expect the dealer will take my 2016 as a trade-in. I give them my 2016 and I get a new 2019 for LESS money. But here the dealer not only won't let me trade-in my 2016, the 2019 costs twice as much as my 2016 did because I have to buy a moped with it. It's indefensible. And you have your head up your a*** if you think what you said is reasonable justification.

The dealer can take trade ins only because they can sell the car you trade in.
Are you offering the Zorins your copy oif 12.4 that they can sell to cover those costs?

As you can see, it is totally defensible and it was a reasonable justification because you are not making any sense at all.
You clearly do not understand Economics. You also do not understand what the word "upgrade" means.

I do not work for Zorin and I am not paid by Zorin. I'm just some random member.
So I really do not give two c***s about how you feel about how I treat you. I do not owe you anything: not free stuff and certainly do not owe you any respect after you joined a forum to beg for free stuff that you do not deserve while you spew abuse because you didn't get what you demanded.
It didn't work for the two year old kicking and screaming on the floor, either.

Have a nice day.

It seems, I am not even finished with you, yet...

gavers wrote: These days people expect free OS upgrades. When you buy Android you're guaranteed at least one major new release. iPhones get free OS upgrades for a long time. Windows and Mac OS both have free upgrades in perpetuity. No one expects to pay for each new OS release anymore. I paid €19 last year for Zorin 12. That's the first OS I've paid for in YEARS and only a year later Zorin is asking now twice as much to upgrade. That's unheard of.

You kind of have a point in that people have been conditioned to expect "free" by selling gimmicks. But if you decide to try you hand at going on dates some day, you will have to learn some self control about expectations.

No one buys Android directly.
They buy the device that Android is installed on. When you buy the device, the cost of the O.S. is included in that price. You do pay for it. At quite a hefty markup, too. So, when the seller of that device (Not Android) guarantees you a major release, they confidently do so because you already paid for it and they know it. They also know the numbers: that most people will buy a NEW phone before the next major release is out.
They break the phone or lose it or just want the Latest and Greatest. And they spend, spend, spend. People dump gobs of money into buying phones.
It's like a addiction, they gotta have it.

Games.
If you buy Duke Nukem one year, do you get to take the sequel for free? Or even discounted? Nope. It doesn't happen. You could buy all the games in a series, Final Fantasy 1 through 12 but you don't get 14 for free or discounted.
"Free" Games.
You download some free game app on your device for free, right? But what comes with it?
Advertising. Advertising. Advertising.
Lots of ads and offers to sell you Game Packs to make the game easier. Many make the game absurdly hard, then offer you over-priced "packs" to make it easier to win. Kinda like thugs offering Protection for your small business... They create the problem, then offer to sell you the solution.
And people download the "Free" games but they paid for it through target marketing. Money Changed Hands.
And the suckers fall for the "solution for sale," too. Any objective observer can clearly see where the money is changing hands.

With Zorin, you do not get Advertising. You do not get "packs." It's direct, straight forward and honest. You get the O.S. free, period. You get the Lite version free, Period. But if you would like to help out Team Zorin, you can buy Ultimate edition to help support Zorin. Period.
Where are the selling gimmicks? Where are the hidden fees in Zorin?

As far as Windows and Mac offering Free Upgrades "in perpetuity," this statement is false or misleading.
With Windows, you might get a "free" O.S. during limited promotional periods, but other than that, you pay for it when you buy the computer or you have to pay a Monthly Subscription Fee instead of buying the O.S. outright like in the old days. Microsoft does not offer Free O.S. in perpetuity and never has.
Mac O.S. operates on Mac Products that you BUY. You are paying for it, so saying it's free in perpetuity is misleading. You can install Zorin on almost any computer. You cannot install Mac O.S. on any computer. You will have to pay Apple for something to run it on and those costs are factored in.

All of the above costs money to develop, produce and distribute.
Can Your Employer demand a discount on paying you because they have invested so much money into you, already? Should you be offering your services at a discount over time? Does your time lose value with the more of it you give?
Funny, the economics of that seems to be the other way around. The longer you are employed, the more raises accrue.

Aravisian wrote: not free stuff and certainly do not owe you any respect after you joined a forum to beg for free stuff that you do not deserve while you spew abuse because you didn't get what you demanded.
It didn't work for the two year old kicking and screaming on the floor, either.

Have a nice day.

Actually, I only asked for clarification on Zorin's policy on upgrades. Look at my first post in this thread. I don't need or want a copy of Zorin OS 15 Ultimate because Zorin already supplied the tech blog I write for with a copy for review. When I got to writing the part of the review for customers upgrading from 12, I came here as a customer asking for clarification on Zorin's upgrade options. When I got no response I put the review on hold. I was recently reminded that we had this review in queue so I came back to this, and I'm sure glad I did. This was very enlightening. The review we were going to publish was actually pretty positive. Without the response on upgrades the review was nearly forgotten. But now that has completely changed. This went from a positive review to no review to a scathing review of Zorin's horrible treatment towards paying customers. Moderators in the support forums using shill accounts to insult customers. Zorin employees either not responding or pretending not to be employees to insult people. The "I don't work for Zorin so don't blame Zorin for what I say" moderators blocking people they disagree with. This has got to be one of the worst things I've experienced from a company in all my years of reviewing technology products. I certainly can't recommend a product when customers seeking help are treated this way. If you "two" really don't work for Zorin, in your attempt to defend them you've ensured they'll be getting a very negative review and if you do represent Zorin, you should be absolutely ashamed. I didn't say I was a reviewer because I want to know how real customers get treated. This is absolutely abhorrent and I'd be doing our readers a great disservice in recommending Zorin OS. Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.

gavers wrote:

Aravisian wrote: not free stuff and certainly do not owe you any respect after you joined a forum to beg for free stuff that you do not deserve while you spew abuse because you didn't get what you demanded.
It didn't work for the two year old kicking and screaming on the floor, either.

Have a nice day.

Actually, I only asked for clarification on Zorin's policy on upgrades. Look at my first post in this thread. I don't need or want a copy of Zorin OS 15 Ultimate because Zorin already supplied the tech blog I write for with a copy for review. When I got to writing the part of the review for customers upgrading from 12, I came here as a customer asking for clarification on Zorin's upgrade options. When I got no response I put the review on hold. I was recently reminded that we had this review in queue so I came back to this, and I'm sure glad I did. This was very enlightening. The review we were going to publish was actually pretty positive. Without the response on upgrades the review was nearly forgotten. But now that has completely changed. This went from a positive review to no review to a scathing review of Zorin's horrible treatment towards paying customers. Moderators in the support forums using shill accounts to insult customers. Zorin employees either not responding or pretending not to be employees to insult people. The "I don't work for Zorin so don't blame Zorin for what I say" moderators blocking people they disagree with. This has got to be one of the worst things I've experienced from a company in all my years of reviewing technology products. I certainly can't recommend a product when customers seeking help are treated this way. If you "two" really don't work for Zorin, in your attempt to defend them you've ensured they'll be getting a very negative review and if you do represent Zorin, you should be absolutely ashamed. I didn't say I was a reviewer because I want to know how real customers get treated. This is absolutely abhorrent and I'd be doing our readers a great disservice in recommending Zorin OS. Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.

I'm not a moderator- it's not a shill account. And any observer can verify that with 265 or so normal posts under my belt that demonstrates a lack of being used to "shill the sheeple."
The more likely probability is that I am simply a person that speaks bluntly and called out your arguments -piece by piece- for where they were wrong.
I also do not believe your idle threats, one bit.
You did not merely ask for clarification. You went on a litany of complaint, stated that you posted negative comments on YouTube reviews and actively sought to turn people away from the Zorin Product.
I quote:

gavers wrote:I've commented on YouTube several videos featuring Zorin 15 saying how Zorin treats paying customers. I know I've convinced more than one person to stay away from Zorin. But no. I'm not using it. I tell people how I feel I wasted my money. I tell people don't use it. Don't buy it. When the next version comes out, Zorin will do to them what they did to people who paid for 12. I could have been an advocate, but I became a detractor because Zorin decided to try getting more money out of me instead of giving me value for the money I already paid.

Now, you claim you are not a Customer seeking help. You changed your story. Initially you claimed to have been a paying customer that has shown the Zorin Team support, now you claim to be a High End Reviewer that was given a copy for review by Team Zorin. So, are you saying that when you told people on Youtube that you wasted your money, that was a lie and a fraudulent statement?
You then went on an insulting and abusive tirade (if you were an actual Tech reviewer, that would look like fraud). All because you had entitlement issues and demanded free products- not because you asked for clarification on policies. A Tech Blog reviewer would not pretend to be a victim, cook up a story and then show as much self control as a frog in a mosquito factory.

gavers wrote:Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.

Does that include the bit where you gave a dishonest account, insulted a public forum volunteer and give the appearance of entrapment? Can we include Reddit posts under this umbrella, too?
I call your bluff.

Because if Artyom Zorin had contacted you with a copy and asked you to review it, you would have your questions answered, already.

I also know that the vast and great many positive reviews out there on tech blogs, youtube and the like are very well supported and thoroughly researched. And they are Very Positive. I even commented on it, myself, recently on this forum.

A review wouldn't have been forgotten on hold just because someone had a nonsense question without knowing what the word "upgrade" means.

IF any of the above had any truth to it, a Positive Review you had wouldn't get scrapped by your editor just because you picked a fight with a random internet scoundrel.

Your paranoid suspicions do not impress me any. If anything, they belie a knee jerk reaction from you, demonstrate a person that not only does now understand basic economics, or what "upgrade" means and you cannot do your homework. Your posts have shown nothing but derision and anger and you do not deserve kind words from a Random Forum Member on the internet.
IF you did try posting a review in a Tech Blog based on the fact that a Forum Member called you out on your absurd commentary, your editor would have you in a sling.

So yes, this is how you get treated. By Me. You did state that you wanted to get what you deserve, after all... This is not Tech Support or Customer Service. It's a Public Discussion Board. You may as well have jumped on Reddit.


In the meantime...

Many users of Zorin have come to this Free Forum over the course of many years and received a great deal of help to honest requests with honest issues. From Volunteers who -unpaid- took time to research and find helpful answers.
If you pop in and abuse those volunteers, you don't get to cry "foul" and make threats.
And... you did.
I quote:

gavers wrote:Are you really this dense?
It's indefensible. And you have your head up your a*** if you think what you said is reasonable justification.

So... IF you are truly a reviewer from a tech blog, that has no self control, pops in abusively, stirs up dissension on a Public Discussion board, has a sleeping editor and manage to post some wacky Negative Review on your "tech Blog" (Cough Cough I'm a camel!), I will be right behind ya with your quotes for viewer review too.


No, you do not get products for free and you most certainly do not get to join this forum and abuse the volunteers that help people.

Aravisian wrote:a lot of stuff

I didn't read most of that, but I'll respond to a couple things I saw. No one offered the site a copy. I asked the EIC to request a review copy. He did, and it was given. This isn't a paying gig for me so it's not a high priority. I had started writing the review last month but got sidetracked. I admit I'm lazy. I'll finish the review, and the EIC will decide what to publish. I don't get to write whatever I please, or the site loses credibility. Readers expect an honest and unbiased review and it's the EIC's job to ensure they get that. And I saw something about abusing volunteers. Participating on a forum open to the public doesn't make you a volunteer and I certainly didn't abuse anyone. I asked AZorin a question publicly, and gave my opinion on an apparent policy that still hasn't been articulated by anyone officially claiming to represent Zorin. It's dense to compare "upgrading" a car, which has significant material costs, to software which has no material cost per copy, a fixed development cost, and potential support costs. You can disagree that that's dense and if you want to believe calling someone dense for being dense is abusive, yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Whether using 12 or 15, Zorin's cost to support each user doesn't go up by giving free upgrades. In fact, by having everyone on the latest version, support costs go down. Development costs are already spent regardless of how many people upgrade. And saying I'm begging to get something free, that you say is already free, that would cost nothing for Zorin to give to people who already paid money, well that's dense too. Oh the horrible abuse you're suffering! But I have what I need to finish the review. So I'm done here. Feel free to write paragraph upon paragraph saying whatever you want about me. I won't be back to read it, but if it makes you feel better to have the last word have at it. In fact, I award you 14 internets for winning an argument on the internet. Congrats! And bye.

gavers wrote:I think Zorin should have proactively given buyers of Zorin OS 12 Ultimate a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate. You've given some excuses why it's ok for them to charge. But can you give a good reason why Zorin should NOT offer a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate (without the bundled "Lite" version) to people who recently purchased Zorin OS 12 Ultimate? (tell me why they have to charge, not why it's OK to charge)

That is not how it works.

You are the one making the claim that Zorin should offer discounts or free products. The onus is on you to support why that should be done. It is not up to others to try to prove a negative. It is not up to others to explain "why not."
You cannot prove a negative.

I actually agree with you in these parts:
1.) The price increase was too drastic (It doubled) and too unexpected.
2.) There may be a better way to achieve the same goal.

For point 1, it makes sense many people would react to an increase in price and hearing that it is a bundle that comes with more product may fall on deaf ears. If they had no need, want or use for that more product, they won't be willing to pay more. The whole reason I never bought Ultimate was because it comes with more product than I want or need. Core suits me perfectly fine.
My personal opinion is that the Price on Zorin 15 Ultimate is a bad idea.

For point 2, it gets more complex. So let's get back to your question: "Why do they have to charge?
Because it costs money to make it.
It costs money to produce and distribute it. It costs money to develop it. It costs money to provide tech Support and Customer Service for it.
And, because the Zorins want to profit.

Let's do Economics 101 _ Brutally Honest Style.

The Zorins brothers were a couple of Teens who got an idea for a Linux Distro. When they started out, the user base was small. Their first release had very few users. The Zorins could handle the load.
As time passed, more and more people were using their product.
Today, the Most Popular Linux Distro is Linux Mint. Mint is supported by a large company and a great many people.
Zorin 12 was ranked 24 to 26 place behind Mint. That may not seem like much, but that's pretty high. But Zorin Team is not a company with many people.
Their workload increased- A LOT. This very success of Zorin is also the downfall... It's a testament to how good the O.S. has been, but it also comes with greater demands. The Zorin Team needed to expand- HIRE more People. Hire Developers. Hire support. This wasn't started by a company, it started on the bottom floor with two kids. There's nothing to fall back on when income decreases.
Since Zorin O.S. is a Linux Distro, this means that it is FREE.
It Is Free.
You can download an Ultimate Paid Version, but you certainly do not have to. Core is Just as Good and it is FREE. Downloading Ultimate is an act to show support for the development and keep the project going.
As time passed, fewer and fewer people were downloading Ultimate and more and more were downloading Core. The demands increased, the income decreased. Economics.

Now your question answered and the economics covered, why not a Free Product? You do get a free product. Lite. Core.
Why not a free Ultimate? Because the purpose of Ultimate is to gather income to pay the costs and expenses of the project. Office rental, tech and hiring developers and support.
Why not a discount? Same as above. Which also brings as back to the cost of Ultimate doubling. By doubling the cost of it, it inspired people to think of wanting a discount. It's an unfamiliar change. It is not because people deserve one. Your investment in Zorin 12 was not eternal. Anymore than your investment in a video game is eternal. You don't get all sequels for free. You don't get to buy Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and then get Raiders of the Lost Ark for Free.
You are not entitled to a discount or free, and if you believe you are, the onus is on you to explain clearly why, not on others to explain (ad infinitum) why not.
So, brutally honest right?
You don't Care about entitlement or discounts or the rest- You just Do Not Want To Pay That Much. You want the product, but you don't want the Higher Price.
I agree.
The Zorins want to make money. They wanted to make it a career, get a nice retirement out of it. Expand, hire more people, decrease workload and increase profits.
I agree with that, too.

So for 2, I think that they SHOULD knock the price of Ultimate Down. Remove the Bundle aspect.
I think that Zorin should also do like others do with Patreon, set up an account that we can donate ANY amount to, to show our support. I won't pay forty euros, but I would be happy to donate to the Zorin Team what I can afford. I would even be happy to make multiple smaller donations over time, instead of one time medium sized purchases. The smaller donations would add up to a greater amount.

gavers wrote:It's dense to compare "upgrading" a car, which has significant material costs, to software which has no material cost per copy, a fixed development cost, and potential support costs. Whether using 12 or 15, Zorin's cost to support each user doesn't go up by giving free upgrades. In fact, by having everyone on the latest version, support costs go down. Development costs are already spent regardless of how many people upgrade. And saying I'm begging to get something free, that you say is already free, that would cost nothing for Zorin to give to people who already paid money,

Totally Wrong.
As has already been explained to you:

Zorin 15 is not
NOT
Not
not
an upgrade to Zorin 12.
How many times can it be explained to you?

It is a separate Development Project. It was not developed for free- but at great cost. Those costs included Two Other Developers that are no longer with Team Zorin. They worked on getting 15 developed and released before moving on to other projects.
Development costs are not already spent... Does your employer say that he doesn't need to keep paying you for your many hours of work because he already paid you your first paycheck? That's total nonsense! I know you must know better than this. Development is not a fixed cost.
Those costs are covered by those that want to see the projects continue and support Zorin by buying Ultimate. That's the purpose of Ultimate. That is why it exists. If they are going to give that away free, too,and not cover the costs of development, they would never have made Ultimate, left it at Core Edition, gotten regular full time jobs at some company and Zorin releases would be slow and unpredictable.

gavers wrote:You can disagree that that's dense and if you want to believe calling someone dense for being dense is abusive, yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Who is being dense here...? Considering having to explain what upgrade means to you ad infinitum and you still don't get it... According to you, calling you dense right now wouldn't be abuse and you can't accuse it as negative treatment for your "review."

Wow... what a read.. I don't want to re-start the hostility, but I can clearly see good points made by both sides. One side more than the other, but good points nonetheless. I completely understand and agree that Zorin has a few options to pay, not to pay. Pay to support the cause or not to pay and use for free. It's all about choices that best suite your needs. I got Ultimate. For me, there were way to many packages that I would never use/need. Just an average user, not a power user. After a while removing a bunch, just decided to move to Core. Made me happy. My choice. Would I donate again to help the cause, yes. But not at £39. I'd give $15, $20, $25 maybe, but we are not given that option (I'm sure if I'm wrong on that, I will be corrected). I donate to Mint, Thunderbird, Firefox and a few others that I use and have come to need on my PC. I can also see the point of buying something only to find out not too long later I could have had a better version and could have saved the money to use for the better product. The two for one thing, you can only use 1 at a time. So that comes across as a weak claim. But hey, I didn't create their business model and Zorin has every right to do it as they please. If it works for them, great. If they see a decrease and loss, they can always change it down the road. Would it be awesome for already paid customers get a break on a new version, heck yeah. Flip side, can you get Core and use completely for free, yes. I'm just waiting for the Zorin Lite 15 to come out to try, may even replace core with it (Seems that the extra speed I see with XFCE draws me to those versions). But it's all choice here. No one makes you pay. You can get it for free. I personally would like to see the Zorin brothers have success for a long time, and live off this until retirement (I'll be dead by then, but a user until that happens. They are so young..lol) But we as customers have a choice, so why complain. Just move on and let those that enjoy Zorin, enjoy it. So save the £39 and use Core, You'll be happy.

A bottle of whiskey costs $26 bucks... Zorin is a rock solid OS that doesn't crash and that always works... and is even easy to set up for someone who is not an IT professional... I ran Mac OS 10.6.8 for ten years with no upgrades... Zorin 15 is so good, that I could see myself using it for a long haul too.

You can run aps on Zorin like: Scribus, Gimp 2.10, Sublime Text, Darktable, Foobar2000 and the latest Mozilla stuff! I don't think I'll be going back to Adobe if I can have Scribus and Gimp 2.10. I might have to for Adobe Acrobat.

These journalists use their position of trust to mislead and misguide their readers time and time again. Thanks to Aravisian for a sane point of view on this one.

JeffK969 wrote:Would I donate again to help the cause, yes. But not at £39. I'd give $15, $20, $25 maybe, but we are not given that option (I'm sure if I'm wrong on that, I will be corrected).

Forty euros is too steep for me, too, right now. I agree 100% about a better donation model.
I had suggested that they do like some SciShow youtubers and set up a Pantheon account. You could donate only $1.00 but more people would donate.

JeffK969 wrote:I can also see the point of buying something only to find out not too long later I could have had a better version and could have saved the money to use for the better product. --Would it be awesome for already paid customers get a break on a new version, heck yeah.

When Zorin 15 was released, this question was being asked all over the board and Swarfendor and then myself were recommending that the user sends a PM to the Zorin Team and asks for a break. It does make sense.
However, as more and more and more people kept asking, going back a rather lengthy period of time, a problem surfaced.
1.) The release of Zorin 15 was well anticipated. It's not like Zorin 15 was a big surprise and how many people really bought 12.4 Core a week before 15 came out? At what point is the buyer responsible for their homework and decisions?
2.) It's a slippery slope, how far back do you go? When a person asked about a discount or break on buying Zorin 15 when they had bought 12.4 Ultimate almost a year -or More- ago... Some felt entitled to a "Free Upgrade" two years in.
One thing became apparent: That 12.4 Ultimate cost half what Zorin 15 Ultimate did. You realize that the motive was not about a 'free upgrade' but about general unhappiness with the doubled price and that the user was looking for a way of reducing that price.

The lack of happiness in a Doubled Price is a valid point. But I do think People may be responsible to themselves and self aware enough to accept the thing that truly is bothering them instead of looking for an 'out' or an excuse.

JeffK969 wrote:If it works for them, great. If they see a decrease and loss, they can always change it down the road.

With decisions come costs.
I was discussing the concpets of Leadership with someone recently and my advise was three - the lessons I have learned in life:
1.) Leadership means carrying the hard decisions. The decisions others don't want to be responsible for.
2.) Before you can lead, you must follow.
3.) Leadership is not about barking orders and telling others what to do. It is about inspiring others to WANT to follow your lead.
The Zorin Team consists of two people and they are in charge of Zorin. The decisions and the responsibility of carrying them falls on Zorin; we have the luxury of complaining about their decisions without having to make them.
I disagree with doubling the price on Ultimate and I disagree with not having a Pantheon-style donation account set up. The decisions are not mine to make and while it is permissible that I give confrontation; It is also the honorable thing to do to defend their decisions.
I get a little testy when someone pops up and demands entitlement to free product of someone elses labor, especially when that Free Product is already 100% available from the people that labored to make it with only the OPTION for a DONATION made available instead of a set price on all users.

JeffK969 wrote:I'm just waiting for the Zorin Lite 15 to come out to try, may even replace core with it (Seems that the extra speed I see with XFCE draws me to those versions).

Agreed. I am already writing up my .css junk in anticipation of 15 Lite. I bet I won't plan it right and will have my hands tied and will have to redo it all...

I run some expensive music creation libraries. Several years ago I paid full price for one of them, I think it was around 500.00. Literally the next day they dropped the price by half. What did I do? I sucked it up and said, "Them's the breaks."

Sheesh.

LOL.. I hear ya. I am just at the point as to where I can't stand threats. Like the American Left trying to shame or harm people who think differently then them by telling crazies where opposition lives. People can make up their own minds. It's a form of bullying to me. Any valid point he made (I was agreeing with a few points that were made and still somewhat do) were negated by the negative review threats. He must have some huge following... Maybe...lol

Would it be nice if Lite 15 and Ultimate were stand alones, sold seperately. Heck Yeah. But they are not. I like this OS a lot and will just use the versions I'm happy with. It's my choice. If I don't like them, it's my decision to go elsewhere or stay. I choose to stay (and will admit I also have and use Mint daily). But to complain, why bother. Just write the review and let the adults decide. But it did make for an interesting read..Haha. I like good, well written arguments. A good job was done...

And asking for more free stuff after getting a free version, must be a millennial..lol I just don't get it..

JeffK969 wrote:Any valid point he made (I was agreeing with a few points that were made and still somewhat do)

I agree that a point that is valid must be recognized as valid, regardless of personal feelings or general disagreement with points thought to be invalid.

JeffK969 wrote:were negated by the negative review threats. He must have some huge following... Maybe...lol

I do not believe he was a reviewer, at all.

If the fella had been decent and honorable and honest, he probably would have gotten a favorable response. But deflecting his ire over the price toward entitlement issues and then claiming to be in a position of authority and using that to make threats- I was left with no desire to take prisoners.

The Zorin Team is always, 100% extremely professional, courteous and polite. I enjoyed the human luxury of not needing to be.

In addition, the Zorin Team consisted of (I think) four people during production of Zorin 15 and of two people after as the others went on to other projects needing their attention.
This small handful of people promised an OS to Knock Your Socks off and while Zorin 15 is not MY cup 'o' tea, I believe they delivered as promised, without a shadow of a doubt. In such, they provided, FOR FREE amazing hard work and dedication.
We cannot get Greedy and try to take advantage of such. "It's FOSS, baby!" is an core belief that is starting to lose ground as more MS refugees move to Linux but carry their MS attitudes along with them.
Gotta make a stand against that. Gnome is already as bad as MS ever was. Canonical is not much better and MS bought Github.

JeffK969 wrote:Would it be nice if Lite 15 and Ultimate were stand alones, sold seperately. Heck Yeah. But they are not.

I believe that Zorin 15 Lite will be released FREE, soon.

JeffK969 wrote:
And asking for more free stuff after getting a free version, must be a millennial..lol I just don't get it..

With a manicured beard and faux lumberjack flannel while wearing loafers and ankle socks.

Aravisian wrote: I believe that Zorin 15 Lite will be released FREE, soon.

From your lips to God's ears... Or in this case from your keyboard to God's eyes...
Already planning on wiping out Linux Mint Mate on my main pc and going with Lite 15...
Transferring files already, getting prepared.. If just even slightly better than 12.4, I will be very happy...

So they are coming out with an Ultimate Lite version and a regular Lite version. Wonder if the differences will be similar
to Ultimate vs Core. Wondering.... What would be the difference... Hmmm..

"With a manicured beard and faux lumberjack flannel while wearing loafers and ankle socks."

Don't forget the jeans with (fake) holes in them. There was a time when I wore jeans with holes in them, but they were real holes. I couldn't afford new jeans.

mdiemer wrote:Don't forget the jeans with (fake) holes in them. There was a time when I wore jeans with holes in them, but they were real holes. I couldn't afford new jeans.

Well, of course you couldn't. You just blew five hundred clams on a product you could have weaseled for half price.


I have had similar on eBay. I had bought tools that I paid for only to see them get listed at a later date and go for much less.
I have also gotten killer deals, too. I recently acquired a very nice item for about $4 that normally sells for over $100.
As an eBay seller, the reverse has happened. I will sell an item much lower than trending price sometimes and sometimes, it bids out into outer space.

mdiemer wrote:"With a manicured beard and faux lumberjack flannel while wearing loafers and ankle socks."

Don't forget the jeans with (fake) holes in them. There was a time when I wore jeans with holes in them, but they were real holes. I couldn't afford new jeans.

Those jeans probably worth $250 now that its a 'thing'

JeffK969 wrote:

Aravisian wrote: I believe that Zorin 15 Lite will be released FREE, soon.

Wonder if the differences will be similar
to Ultimate vs Core. Wondering.... What would be the difference... Hmmm..

There is any easy route around all these version problems: all Linux users must take a hands-on approach to their chosen distro, so do it yourself! Swarf has already listed the differences between Core 15 and Ultimate 15 here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12491 and all anyone wanting to avoid paying extra for Ultimate needs to do is select additional apps from the list and install them in Core (or Lite, when available).

Having originally installed Zorin 12 Ultimate on a 2005 machine, I had to downgrade to Lite as the system couldn't handle developments. I then built a new rig for Zorin 12.4 Ultimate and will use that until it is no longer supported when it will be replaced by this current hybrid Core-15-Ultimate (custom built from Swarf's list).

Re payments in general, the best approach is a "contribute what you want" type as used by some other distros IMHO.

tambler wrote:
There is any easy route around all these version problems: all Linux users must take a hands-on approach to their chosen distro, so do it yourself! Swarf has already listed the differences between Core 15 and Ultimate 15 here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12491 and all anyone wanting to avoid paying extra for Ultimate needs to do is select additional apps from the list and install them in Core (or Lite, when available).

Having originally installed Zorin 12 Ultimate on a 2005 machine, I had to downgrade to Lite as the system couldn't handle developments. I then built a new rig for Zorin 12.4 Ultimate and will use that until it is no longer supported when it will be replaced by this current hybrid Core-15-Ultimate (custom built from Swarf's list).

Exactly.
There is a certain selling point that the Zoirn Team is pretty good at patching and using backdoors to piece it all together. The reason some may opt for the Ultimate is to avoid the hassle and enjoy the expertise while also being able to support development and the team.
But it is 100% true that anyone can build their own "Ultimate" Zorin for free. It's FOSS, baby!

tambler wrote:Re payments in general, the best approach is a "contribute what you want" type as used by some other distros IMHO.

I agree. I think it would pull in more contributions, as well.

They should do like other projects and have a Patreon account.

I wish they would for a few reasons. One of my 1st Linux distro's was 'Chalet OS'. It was awesome and really helped get me into Linux. I thought all linux distro's must be this good. Ha. But coming over from M$, it was a godsend. Also used Zorin Ultimate, Linux Mint. Well, don't know what happened with Dejan Petrović, but his great creation went dormant. Have tried a dozen other distro's, but the lure of Zorin keeps bringing me back. Although I don't use Ultimate, there is something that I enjoy about using Zorin. My Hook so to speak. My new Chalet. I hope to use Zorin OS for all my remaining pc days. With that said, they need to be around for that to happen....

Also, they are working on this big project for business systems/solutions. Wouldn't having some extra dough help them with getting some extra hands involved while finishing XCFE and all the other tasks they need to do. I'm sure just having two guys working on this, no matter how brilliant, must be a awful lot of work. There's only so much time in the day. They both have lives to lead away from the terminals too.

However this plays out, I just want to say Thank You to the Zorin's. Love your work. You have made your own brilliant slice of Linux.

JeffK969 wrote:I hope to use Zorin OS for all my remaining pc days. With that said, they need to be around for that to happen....

Also, they are working on this big project for business systems/solutions. Wouldn't having some extra dough help them with getting some extra hands involved while finishing XCFE and all the other tasks they need to do. I'm sure just having two guys working on this, no matter how brilliant, must be a awful lot of work. There's only so much time in the day. They both have lives to lead away from the terminals too.

However this plays out, I just want to say Thank You to the Zorin's. Love your work. You have made your own brilliant slice of Linux.

Well said.

In my opinion and gauging by general human nature, I doubt that the Zorin bothers keep producing Zorin and dealing with the time crunches and stress because they just love doing it.
I am sure that sometimes they feel that way. But there are also days, that we all know too well, when you just don't want to go in to work.

When I was young, I asked an old timer what a person is supposed to do when you have one of those days. Unmotivated, feeling like your **** is dragging.
His answer was, "You work through it." He was right.
But a person needs a motive to do so.

Very recently, I decided to try out Mint, again. The first time I tried it was some odd months ago when I was freshly left windows and had no experience at all with Linux. I couldn't get it to work but got Zorin to work. Never looked back at Mint.
But I keep hearing about it, so I took a look. I like it. It is less Gnomey, has reasonably good customization though not as easy to do as XFCE. But when I got into the code, I saw that I had things I could learn. I am playing with it, now.
But if I had to choose today (For whatever reason your imagination throws out there) between Mint and Zorin OS, Mint would lose hands down.
You really said it well; Zorin has a certain appeal. With every other Distro I try out, it feels like an OS but when you log back into Zorin, it feels like coming home.

Agreed.... Almost like the warm hot coco after shoveling snow for several hours...
Ok, maybe not the same..haha But there is a certain level of comfort and ease/enjoyment that keeps you around...

After much though, I decided that I shall just pay for the ultimate version, and just use the non-ultimate Core & XFCE.
Or maybe the Ultimate Lite, since I'm curious how quick it can run with all those extra packages...

Will be able to post on here until 2027, right? That would come out to roughly $5 a year for 8 years....
Plus, it would be helping the cause (which is the major reason to do it. And the Right one...)..

JeffK969 wrote:Agreed.... Almost like the warm hot coco after shoveling snow for several hours...
Ok, maybe not the same..haha But there is a certain level of comfort and ease/enjoyment that keeps you around...

After much though, I decided that I shall just pay for the ultimate version, and just use the non-ultimate Core & XFCE.
Or maybe the Ultimate Lite, since I'm curious how quick it can run with all those extra packages...

Will be able to post on here until 2027, right? That would come out to roughly $5 a year for 8 years....
Plus, it would be helping the cause (which is the major reason to do it. And the Right one...)..

Is Zorin os 12.4 Lite worth $40?
What do people spend buying video games? And don't let's get started about downloadable content.
And even Flash Games on their phone... I have seen people drop thousands of dollars playing Vikings War of Clans (Recommendation, DON'T play it. It's all drama and no fun.)
Back when I worked at Roto Rooter, I used to stop at McDonalds a lot. You know, always on the road... One month, I calculated out what I was spending on fast food each month- it came out to a little over $500. That's more than a car payment. On something poorly made, unsatisfying and doomed to be turned into poo.
I balked at my truck payment. Yet, $500 a month or so was worth it for that fast convenience of bad food?
We are funny creatures with odd priorities. I pretty much never go to McDonalds, now.
Zorin OS Lite is worth something. I am not going to suggest a value. But when you think about what we have really paid to Microsoft... Over the years OR over just a short time... How much we regularly spend on useless junk and expendables. And on greedy marketing, nothing more. Those taking advantage of addictive nature. How many flash games boldly advertise how addicting they are?
Did I say we are funny creatures? I meant stupid.

Here in the UK, local 'State' providers of services are going to face a huge bill in January - if they don't move from 7 to 10 they will face a charge of $50 (£38 in April/May when the article written - probably nearer to the US$ amount now with the weakening pound) per machine, with the cost doubling each year for three years, and organisations that currently use Windows 10 are facing a corporate bill jumping from £214,000 to £450,000 per year. This in turn will lead to reduced services and job losses.

I hear ya both. Got the Ultimate version last night. Now just waiting on the Ultimate Lite 15 link.... So I'm good until 2027, or until the next version comes out and I upgrade again...
A truly justified expense in my opinion. Kinda upset that it took me a while to come around..

Swarfendor437 wrote:Here in the UK, local 'State' providers of services are going to face a huge bill in January - if they don't move from 7 to 10 they will face a charge of $50 (£38 in April/May when the article written - probably nearer to the US$ amount now with the weakening pound) per machine, with the cost doubling each year for three years, and organisations that currently use Windows 10 are facing a corporate bill jumping from £214,000 to £450,000 per year. This in turn will lead to reduced services and job losses.

Alternatively, the service providers could ditch the proprietary dysfunctional bloatware and migrate to Linux. Lots of distros to choose from depending on company requirements but there is a distro for every purpose and the learning curve is minimal - especially with a fully equipped flexible distro such as Zorin!
This migration has worked very well in many locations and the only real stumbling block would appear to be the "state officials" who allow their powers of reasoning to be unduly influenced by attractive proprietary backhanders.