Failing to boot from main drive

Hi,

I am a little bit new, and I haven't had a chance to read everything to the last detail. But there's something I've noticed about Ubuntu based installations that seems to be very common, and a real pain when encountered.

The phenomenon is that you put the installation iso onto a USB stick (or DVD). Run it and test. Install it on the boot drive, and then the resulting operating system fails to boot. I have experienced this with various versions of Ubuntu. Including the current version of Kubuntu, Zorin, and Ultimate. And also on a number of different PC's. Both 32 and 64 bit. It seems to be more common on hardware more than 2 years old and recent releases of ubuntu. The only version that has not done this to me is EasyPeasy for netbooks, and I use this as a test that there is nothing else obviously wrong with the hardware.

The symptom is that the boot process just freezes, leaving a flashing cursor in the top left corner of the screen with the rest of the screen blank. Pressing keys, any combination, elicits no response until after a couple of dozen or so when the machine simply beeps in response to each keypress. I've looked on various user forums and this seems to be quite a widespread problem. I've tried many of the proposed fixes, but none of them work for me.

In the case of Zorin, the only installation I have managed to get working is on an Acer Aspire one netbook. Zorin will not install successfully on it's own, but I managed to install it after EasyPeasy 1.6, i.e. alongside, and I can then get it to run from the boot menu. Zorin on it's own produces no menu of any kind. I can install it to another USB stick and run it from that as a system drive. But not the main drive.

On the positive side. I have been obliged to change my 3G dongle from a Huawei E160 to an E173. The support from Hauwei is very poor and I couldn't find any drivers for the E173 that work with ubuntu, kubuntu, ultimate or easypeasy, but zorin works straight off. Clearly it has a set of drivers which the others don't have. I also discovered that Zorin also supports the Huawei E1752, which is another problem dongle.

Also interestingly, Zorin appears to run noticeably quicker on the netbook than any other Linux distros I've tried.

Anyone care to comment?

Maybe its just a matter of re-installing the grub menu, although it is extremelly strange, as the grub menu is prepared during installation. Do you have any partitions and is there a chance that you are installing the grub menu in a pertition other than your main one that Zorin is installed?

Are you perfoming the installation after you boot to the "live" desktop and then clicking on the "install Zorin" icon?

Try the other approach. On the first boot menu do not chose "run the live CD" but instead chose "start the installer directly". It is the 3rd choise.
I have found out that the installation proccess is done much better in this way without problems.

I have installed Zorin in 8 Pcs and laptops as the single OS using the above way, and never had problem. Only once I tried to install zorin after booting to the live desktop, and I had problems with the installation.

On the other hand, indeed ZOrin is by far the fastest linux OS I have tried. Literally transforms old and not powerfull PCs/laptops.

By Grub Menu, I take it you are referring to the list of start options which appears on the screen as the machine is initialising.

This only appears on the installation on which I have EasyPeasy installed as well. It defaults to Zorin on boot up, which is fine and how I use it. I don't use EP at all, it's just an appendage to get the thing running.

I have no idea how to install that, or where it originates from. I assumed it was put there by EasyPeasy.

I have tried installing directly - i.e. from the menu that comes up when you boot from the memory stick. I've tried configuring from the installed and tested varieties both usb stick and DVD (IDE, Sata & USB) so I think I've covered every possibility. The result is always the same - it hangs up.

When you install from the iso, there is no choice of options as far as I can see. You just install to the main drive and that's it. Or rather there is only the choice of disks. You can install it to a usb, which I've done, and that boots up fine, though a little slow. Obviously there is something wrong in the code the gets onto the main drive. Maybe the boot sector code. I'm not terribly familiar with Linux, although I've been writing code for processors since the mid 70's. I just want to use it as a tool. I'm not an enthusiast as such, and like most people I don't want to get too deep into it. Haven't got the time or the resources. I was happy with the EasyPeasy I was using, but it won't support the dongle. Zorin definitely seems better, especially in terms of speed. Pity it doesn't work properly. I'm not the only one that's discovered this problem, and I've got it on bog standard motherboards that run Win7 no problem. If you do a search you'll find hundreds of people find the same thing. Actually I know a couple of people who've tried it and quickly get to the stage of wanting to throw the thing out of the window. They think I'm mad to waste time and effort and persist with such a flaky op system. But it seems my only choice to keep the netbook going, which I like for it's size and weight.

Just a minute to clear a few things.

Are you trying to install 1. Zorin OS in the USB stick (i.e. use the USB as your main drive) OR 2.you are tryring to install the OS using a bootable USB stick?

If you are referring to option 1, you must chose to install both the Grub menu in the same directory as the OS. Namely that would be sdb1.

When you boot the DVD or USB etc and you see the first menu, you chose "start installer directly".

Then, after chosing language, you get three choices. Either install Zorin in parallel with another OS (if any), or wipe out the whole drive and install zorin, OR option 3 which says "chose something else".
In this 3rd option, in the bottom of the window that will open you chose in which drive/partition to install the grub menu. This is extremely important, especially if you want to install Zorin in a USB stick or SD card. But generally it is very important, because if the gurb menu is installed in a partition other than the main one, you will probably not be able to boot to the system, and I suspect that this is the problem you are having.


Coming now to option2. i.e. to install Zorin using a bootable USB stick, which program are you using to create the USB? Are you using "unebootin"?

In any case, just to see if actually the problem is the location of the grub menu, you can do the following.

In case you cannot boot again insert the live CD and boot to the live desktop.

Open a terminal and write

Code:

sudo fdisk -l

You will check to see what is the name of your main partition.
Usually it is sda1.

Then, based on the above, write the following:

Code:

sudo mount /dev/sda1 /mnt
sudo grub-install --root-directory=/mnt /dev/sda

And reboot.

Okay, step by step.

I am trying to install onto the main drive. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The usb stick was just a test to see what happened. But as it works I've kept it. And it boots on any aspire one no problem. (as long as the boot order is set correctly via F2)

I do use unetbootin (for windows). It's the only one that seems to always work. I simply make a boot disk from the iso downloaded. No frills. Is there any other way?

In the case of Zorin, there are 3 options. Install alongside the existing op sys; clear the drive; or do your own thing - user defined. I always select the second and let the installer choose the partitioning etc. I've learn over the years not to try to be too clever. So the results that don't work are down to the default settings. In the one case where I chose to install alongside EasyPeasy, it did work, as I reported earlier. I should mention that the drive settings and partitioning that Zorin chooses seem rather complex, and maybe that is worthy of investigation. But I don't think it is the source of the problem, because as I mentioned at the beginning, other distros do the same thing - exactly the same. It seems to be a problem with Ubuntu.

This problem is also the same whether installed from DVD or a USB stick. So that doesn't seem to be a factor. I prefer USB for speed and convenience. DVD is very slow.

Like I said I never chose the 3rd option. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable, and I haven't time. Gone are the days when I'd resort to writing basic code to get something working when the people who should have done it have failed to do their job. The installation into the 2nd USB stick as an active main drive was from option2 and worked with a hitch - much to my surprise - from the same usb stick as fails to install to the main drive, which incidentally is a 8G SSD. Not that that makes any difference because this happens with 500G sata as well, albeit on different H/W.

I'll try your suggestions out. I should mention I've tried lots of things that I've read about on various sites, but usually end up tied up in knots because things like files that I'm supposed to edit don't actually exist, or I can't even get the editor to work because it's launched itself read-only etc etc. Trying to keep this simple you know - install by following instructions that's all. If that doesn't work then what hope has 99% of the population got?

== Versions ==

This is the unetbootin I used

unetbootin-win-549.exe

And these are the versions of Ubuntu I have tried. All of them fail in the way described, apart from the easypeasy, on the aspire one and on both Intel and AMD based motherboards. Obviously the 64 bit versions won't work on the aspire and haven't been tried. The sole exception is that I have managed to install the 64 bit zorin on to an Asus M4A87TD EVO, and it booted successfully at the 2nd attempt at installation.


kubuntu-11.10-desktop-i386.iso
zorin-os-5.2-core-32.iso
ultimate-edition-3.0-x86.iso
ubuntu-11.04-desktop-i386.iso
ubuntu-10.10-desktop-amd64.iso
ubuntu-9.10-desktop-i386(2).iso
EasyPeasy-1.6.iso

kubuntu-11.10-desktop-amd64.iso
zorin-os-5.2-core-64.iso
ultimate-edition-2.9-x64.iso

The result of that exercise is that it now boots from the main drive.

I didn't do anything differently. So I can only suppose that the EasyPeasy left a legacy that enables the system to now boot properly. The only difference between this time and the previous is that this time there were two op systems installed together, whereas before there was only one.

There was only one option this time. Clear the disk or custom. Presumeably because three op systems couldn't be squeezed into 8G.

One error message appeared during the install.

"GnoMenu.py closed unexpectedly"

Not the first time I've seen this. I just closed it.

Here is the output from that instruction you gave me.

jim@jim-BlueZorin:~$ sudo fdisk -l

Disk /dev/sda: 8069 MB, 8069677056 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 981 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disk identifier: 0x000b7787

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sda1 * 1 918 7367680 83 Linux
Partition 1 does not end on cylinder boundary.
/dev/sda2 918 981 509953 5 Extended
Partition 2 does not end on cylinder boundary.
/dev/sda5 918 981 509952 82 Linux swap / Solaris
jim@jim-BlueZorin:~$


One noticable thing is that boot-up takes less than half the time it did with EasyPeasy installed alongside. In fact I was thinking how poorly it compared, but that's no longer the case.

____________________________________________

Right, Now I'm going to try the same thing with the other systems, and use the supplementry suggestions you made. Might take a while because I'm busy and it's a lengthy process.

Finally, I must thank you for the positive input which has resulted in a fix. The mystery is why exactly and what was wrong, but that might become clearer later. But it's a fix all the same.

Best Regards,

Glad I helped my friend.
As I told you, most probably the problem was the partition were the grub menu was installed.

I will tell you a little hint. You can chose the 3rd option during the zorin installation process (the "do your own thing" option") and just specify the partition/drive were you want to install the grub menu.
You can then click on "go back" and select the 2nd or 1st option to proceed with the installation, since your are feeling more comfortable with them. The good thing is that your original selection for the grub menu (the one you made in option 3) remains unaltered!

Thanks for the tip.

It'll take me a day or two before I can pursue this further.

One question I do have is - does the successful booting of the op system depend on the grub being there?

I wonder why the code in the boot sector of the main disk doesn't make sure the operating system is loaded, and why the installation code doesn't make sure that this very necessary code is put in the correct place.

This is very basic stuff which seems to easily slip through the net.

swarfendor437 wrote:OK. For starters Zorin Ultimate is not compatible with Unetbootin but it does not tell you this - that's why I have ditched Unetbootin in favour of MultiSystem - also from http://www.pendrivelinux.com. It has a very nice GUI where you can drag and drop .iso's into the interface for it to create a bootable .iso on the memory stick - I have 3 distros plus Hiren's Boot CD on a 16 Gb stick. For older machines I would stick with 3.2 or lite - this has been my argument for some time now that FOSS is trying to keep up with Windows - when it should be trying to keep up with itself.
True, OSes have to be updated to be able to work on newer machines - but what about all the recyclable old ones? That used to be one of the principle benefits of GNU/Linux (and still should be) in it breathes/d new life in to old PCs with only 128 Mb Ram required! I know for a fact that the Ultimate/Premium versions are not compatible with Unetbootin - and as I said MultiSystem let's you know this - Unetbootin just tries to install it and doesn't do a good job of it from my personal experience so hope this helps - MultiSystem does let you create a persistence (permanent /home) install as well. Have not had any issues with 4 Core 32-bit on a stick. It would have been useful if you had given machine details and specifications at the start of the post so we could give more specific help - please try to do this in future postings as it helps narrow down the problems. Hope you continue to enjoy Zorin!

That's interesting and valuable information. Thank you very much.

I found that with ultimate on a unetbootin stick, it hangs up midway through the installation, and you have just given an indication why.

I did mention that in many cases regardless of whether the installation was by USB stick or DVD, the result was the same.

I would also like to point out that I did mention that I had tried this on different machines, all with the same result. Judging by various forums, including this one, this is a very common experience. And one that puts a lot of people off Linux, often for good. The specification of the hardware is less important than the principle that installation procedures should be more or less unified regardless of the hardware. Not much progress will happen if it's necessary to tweak the procedure for every little hardware change. Non expert users, which 99% are, will not tolerate that.

What they do with laptops can be quite strange. I've seen hidden partitions on all sorts of machines. What I tend to do is put in a new HDD anyway.

I may be missing something, but why should a hidden partition affect anything?

All we're trying to do is set up a machine with a boot sector (or whatever the latest equivalent is) which executes and loads the rest of the operating system. If the operating system demands that there be things like swap files or partitions, then it's up to the install program to examine the system and organise all that. And most of them do. To rely on the end user figuring out exactly what is required for a qualified and released product is crazy, and if that's the case it's no surprise there are problems.

If it doesn't work, I don't want to know. Been there, done that. I don't mind doing a bit of tweaking after it's all working, to optimise or add features. But definitely not in order to get it working in the first place.

While I think of it, here is a question for you - related to the foregoing.

Why would unetbootin be incompatible with the contents of some iso's, but not others?

The contents of the iso is surely immaterial. As I understand it, the function of unetbootin, or whatever else one uses, is to organise the feeding of the contents of the iso to the system just as a dvd drive would. Or am I missing something?

madvinegar wrote:The good thing is that your original selection for the grub menu (the one you made in option 3) remains unaltered!

That might explain why my installation of Zorin over the top of the EasyPeasy / Zorin installation worked. That surprised me at the time - pleasantly of course!

swarfendor437 wrote:So does this mean you are sorted now?!

In the sense that I managed to get it running on the Acer Aspire one, yes. But I am still having trouble getting it to boot on other machines. Also, I have another aspire which I've got XP running on fairly well, but the installation of Zorin alongside hangs up while it's checking the drive. I'm trying to figure out why. Meantime I've got it running it from a pen drive, and it's surprisingly good.

swarfendor437 wrote:Are you using automatic install or manual install on the XP machine that you are having install issues?

Don't get that far. It hangs soon after the language selection. I think it doesn't like the disk drive, which is an SSD formatted to FAT32.

There is plenty of drive space. It's a 16G SSD with about 11G to spare I was intending to partition the drive along the lines you described, and use the Zorin installation to do it. But it hangs up before even getting that far, as I said. I'm now looking for a disk drive manager to install under XP so that I can do that and then have another go.

It's a Samsung, not Intel.

But anyhow, that article refers to a whole different bag of worms.

I've not experienced any problem with the Aspire, but with SSD's you must use AHCI and not IDE. Otherwise you find the disk space becoming smaller and smaller because erased file space doesn't always get re-cycled.

If you're in the market for a new SSD always make sure it will support TRIM. A lot of them don't. In my regular PC I have a 120G OCZ-VERTEX3 which is pretty good. It boots up Win7 in 7 secs.

JimA wrote:

swarfendor437 wrote:Are you using automatic install or manual install on the XP machine that you are having install issues?

Don't get that far. It hangs soon after the language selection. I think it doesn't like the disk drive, which is an SSD formatted to FAT32.

Your SSD is formatted to FAT32?? I think you were supposed to format it to NTFS.

Hi,

I found this:

http://askubuntu.com/questions/52258/is ... -by-ubuntu

might answer a couple of questions!!.

Regards Wolfman

Swayy wrote:

JimA wrote:

swarfendor437 wrote:Are you using automatic install or manual install on the XP machine that you are having install issues?

Don't get that far. It hangs soon after the language selection. I think it doesn't like the disk drive, which is an SSD formatted to FAT32.

Your SSD is formatted to FAT32?? I think you were supposed to format it to NTFS.

That's how it comes installed from the manufacturer.

I've tried a different version of Ubuntu, and it doesn't even see the XP there. It just wants to wipe the whole drive.

I think I'm reduced to running it from a USB stick forever.

PLEASE HELP i am booting a live disk and when it loads it freezes as soon as i click install please help

All of the complication of running 2 parallel operating systems on one drive is why I just kept windows on my harddrive and linux on my flash drive. For installation I didn't confuze myself with a f***load of programs, all I did was imgburn to a DVD then boot from that to install to a flash drive. (This is kind of an unnessecairy post...)

pixelperfect37 wrote:PLEASE HELP i am booting a live disk and when it loads it freezes as soon as i click install please help

Hi,

did you burn the ISO file at the slowest possible speed, if you didn't, please reburn it.

Did you try the 2nd option in the menu which is safe graphics mode, are you trying to install direct or boot the first option??.

Regards Wolfman