UnHappy about my Ultimate 15 purchase

Hello everybody - this my first post - hopefully not the last one!

Preliminary facts: I started using Zorin 9 paid version about ten years ago - may be more...
About a couple of weeks ago, after testing the latest release of Zorin Educaton 15, I purchased the Ultimate version.
Guess what? - Possibly the most deceiving experience in my career of 30+ years of distro-hopping!

Further below you'll find the reason why I am so dissatisfied...
But that's not all: I never got a feedback.
To justify a payment request (not an exception, but quite unusual in the Linux world) the purchase of the Ultimate version granted a personal customer support.
So, not having received any answer, I have one more reason to complain and try to get a feedback in this forum.

That said, please check below what I wrote in the mail I sent them:

Quote

---- Messaggio originale ----
Da : meridiana@bluewin.ch
Data : 13/07/2020 - 17:59 (CEST)
A : Zorin OS Support
Oggetto : Re: Re: Problems with the bar / panel (in Zorin 15.2 Ultimate)

Hi,

Thanks for your feedback and related instructions.

While that helped me to do what intended, that not solved completely what I wanted to do.
Being obliged to move the bottom bar to the top in order to create a new panel is not acceptable.
This not to mention the fact that anyway the right-click on the panel(s) does not work.
All in all, this (pretty cumbersome) procedure by sure does not help Windows user and is quite different from the usual behavior that most Linus users (and distro-hoppers) are accustomed to...

Indirect proof of what I say is the fact that your Education version is much closer to my old install of Zorin 9 paid version.
Sincerely I do not understand why you changed a simple procedure (everything doable via a right-click) into a complicated lengthy suite of steps difficult to memorize.

Anyhow, I do not remember (and nothing found on your site) about your refund policy - if any.
Of course, being so deceived from your "Ultimate" version I'll be very grateful if you may consider a refund.
You may well understand that having paid for something that I'll never use does not make me happy.
(even more for the fact that it was not possible to test the product before purchasing it)

Think-it-over and let me know...

Respectfully,

Giorgio

---- Messaggio originale ----
Da : Zorin OS Support
Data : 12/07/2020 - 00:31 (WEST)
A : meridiana@bluewin.ch
Oggetto : Re: Problems with the bar / panel (in Zorin 15.2 Ultimate)

Hello, ...omissis...

My note: text of previous email omitted because superseded by the exposed facts

Unquote

Any suggestion about what I might do?
Thanks in advance for any help / support...

< end-of-post >

Hello WinKiller,

Sorry you have had a poor experience with Ultimate. Can I just check with you that you somehow did not attempt to launch Zorin on Wayland? That is pants and I can see why Ubuntu is dropping Wayland for Gnome (Unless I have got my DE's mixed up with Display Management! On the cog next to login if you click that you should have two options - Zorin Default and Zorin on Wayland - only ever login to Zorin Default. I am guessing that Ubuntu 18.04 got shipped with Wayland by default as I have tried to remove it and it then removes the whole system - one of the joys team Zorin have to cope with the best they can.

That said, if this is not the issue then before you give up the ghost entirely is there any other machine you have access to you could try ultimate on? Not forgetting of course you are trying it on a machine that was built for another OS that never expected an intelligent user to install Linux over Windows!

If you have no way forward I will PM AZorin to look into a refund for you ASAP.

WinKiller wrote: Sincerely I do not understand why you changed a simple procedure (everything doable via a right-click) into a complicated lengthy suite of steps difficult to memorize.

Winkiller, from what I could glean from your quoted email to the developer, it is quite clear that your dissatisfaction stems from the changes made to the Gnome Desktop.
Gnome no longer allows right clicking the panel in order to adjust options.
In addition, Gnome has removed a great deal of functionality, stripping the Gnome desktop apps down to bare essentials, dumping window management client side and attenuating their own goals, rather than meeting the needs of the user.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ub ... 8&oe=utf-8

I HATE GNOME.
I am not even remotely diplomatic about it. Gnome, like Microsoft, was so concerned about Brand Image, that they stuck it to the user in order to try to prevent Independent developers from changing Gnome settings.
The results of this is that you often must use either a tweak tool or gconf in order to adjust and customize Gnome 3. And did they stop us, any? Nope! They just made life harder for distro-users like yourself. Gnome has Betrayed FOSS. My opinion is that abandoning Gnome is long overdue.

Gnome is developed by Gnome, not by Zorin and the Zorin Team had no hand in the development of Gnome, Gnome-shell (Which included Gnome panel), or the changeover to CSD, etc.
I agree with you that Gnome is now a Poor Choice for a distro moving to help users migrate from Windows. Gnome has become, in my opinion, worse than Windows. While Zorin Team is not responsible for Gnome Development and must use the available Desktop Environments like Gnome, I still strongly encourage that the distro shifts away from Gnome.
I recommend the Cinnamon Desktop. XFCE is also a good choice currently, However, while XFCE is on version 4.14, the next release of XFCE 4.16 will be a Gnome-Clone. So, XFCE is a short lived solution. For Zorin Lite, LXQT may be a better option in the future.
The Cinnamenu is also far more similar to the current Win10 Start menu than the Arc Menu is. Over-all, it is just a better choice, now.

Your purchase of Ultimate includes Zorin Ultimate Lite (XFCE) desktop. The XFCE desktop included in Lite (which is 4.14) may be far better suited to what you are used to and familiar with. Why not test it out?
I do think Cinnamon would be closer, though. Cinnamon is a gtk3 version of the Gnome2 desktop.It behaves in a far similar manner to Zorin 9.
Swarfendor is good to his word and will PM Azorin and try to get you some help and while it would be inappropriate for me to predict the outcome of that, I can suggest that you can be all smiles over that response.

However...

I must admit I think that having just been burned by Gnome, you are reasonably unwilling to give Zorin a chance. I know the feeling, because the same happened to me.
While I would eagerly encourage the Zorin Team to ditch Gnome, now, the options you have in front of you remain all the same. Like you, I was so dissatisfied with the Gnome D.E. on Zorin, I sought to replace Zorin as my primary distro.
My attempts failed, as Zorin outperformed other distros hands-down on multiple computers I tested on. From CPU usage to having the right assortment of packages under the hood that greatly reduces falling down the dependency rabbit hole, Zorin has become, after I started out Hating it, to my Distro of Choice on all computers in my home.
I discovered Zorin with XFCE, later Zorin with Cinnamon, solving all those dilemmas with Gnome above in one fell swoop. Your refund is reasonable and I hope you get satisfaction. But replacing your distro may not be necessary if all you need is a new Desktop Environment.

If you are interested in exploring that, please speak up and we will work together to get your desktop sorted out.
Please consider that Team Zorin consists of TWO PEOPLE who, while actively developing, testing updates for Zorin O.S. current, also are responding to Thousands of Help requests by themselves. Honestly, I have no idea how they still have a full head of hair.
And... .I am a bit jealous of that.
But this forum exists for a reason, so please do feel free to use it to seek answers and help. You may also look at a new AskZorin site recently created.
We can help take the brunt off the wait, at least. Or help solve problems entirely.

Thank You all for your comments and suggestions.
That helped me to realize that I have not provided the full picture; both as to the facts and deeper details that I had to omit due to limit of characters allowed for the post.
(btw already pretty long)
Being chronically short in time, I'll provide further details over this week-end.
That said, play-safe and take-care - The new (a)normality is just around the corner...
Happy week-end,
Gio

WinKiller wrote:Thank You all for your comments and suggestions.
That helped me to realize that I have not provided the full picture; both as to the facts and deeper details (snip)

This is true for much of what we deal with in life.
Take your time and hopefully, we can still help get things sorted out.

Swarfendor437 wrote:Hello WinKiller,

Sorry you have had a poor experience with Ultimate. Can I just check with you that you somehow did not attempt to launch Zorin on Wayland? That is pants and I can see why Ubuntu is dropping Wayland for Gnome (Unless I have got my DE's mixed up with Display Management! On the cog next to login if you click that you should have two options - Zorin Default and Zorin on Wayland - only ever login to Zorin Default. I am guessing that Ubuntu 18.04 got shipped with Wayland by default as I have tried to remove it and it then removes the whole system - one of the joys team Zorin have to cope with the best they can.

That said, if this is not the issue then before you give up the ghost entirely is there any other machine you have access to you could try ultimate on? Not forgetting of course you are trying it on a machine that was built for another OS that never expected an intelligent user to install Linux over Windows!

If you have no way forward I will PM AZorin to look into a refund for you ASAP.

Yes, I'll appreciate your help - mainly because I had no more feedback to ma last email...
(quoted here below for your reference and update on this matter)

Not to be rude but all details you provided are nothing new to me.

I started using Linux several years ago; first with Caldera, short after with Mandrake; later Ubuntu became my favorite since its very first release. At that time GNome (not yet Gnome3 that has nothing in common with the real Gnome2) was my favorite desktop.
Later, just for testing and trivial personal use, I added your Zorin 9 in dual-boot with Wxp.

Cutting short a long story, suffice to say that I am working on three Linux workstations with three different distros/desktops:
Mint LMDE4 - RoboLinux Mate 18.04 - Ubuntu Mate 16.04
That said, hopefully, you might understand that I know pretty well how to operate in the Linux world.

I recognize that, concerned about one specific problem, I forgot one key point about the reason of my deception.
In fact, when I tried Ultimate 15 after having installed and tested your Educational 15 and its richness of software, I discovered that the Ultimate 15 version does include not even the half of all those programs available in the Educational 15 version.

So, I am facing a double deception:
A paid for item that I don't like and even has not all the features of the other one that's free!

Hence, my refund request...

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Giorgio

WinKiller wrote:I recognize that, concerned about one specific problem, I forgot one key point about the reason of my deception.
In fact, when I tried Ultimate 15 after having installed and tested your Educational 15 and its richness of software, I discovered that the Ultimate 15 version does include not even the half of all those programs available in the Educational 15 version.

So, I am facing a double deception:
A paid for item that I don't like and even has not all the features of the other one that's free!

Hence, my refund request...

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Giorgio

I do not work for Zorin, am not friends of the Zorins. I do not represent Zorin in any way. Anything I say, I say as an opinionated member of a discussion board about Zorin, but not as a developer of Zorin, since I am not a developer of Zorin.

I am still stumped, this far in, on just where you believe you have been deceived.
Now, I am double stumped, as you say you are double deceived.
So far, you have cut your long story short without ever presenting the long story and the short story does not explain what it is that deceived you. You have repeatedly promised to elaborate, saying that you failed to give the full picture. And you fail to elaborate. You fail to give the bigger picture.

I can certainly understand how you might be unhappy with the Gnome3 Desktop. But as you say you are very familiar with Linux, you should know how to switch desktops. You should, as a regular user of Mate and your agreeable position on Gnome 3, know exactly what Gnome 3 desktop is.

There is No Deception, there.
There is nothing about that that shows a deception made on you. If nothing else, your familiarity with Many Distros should make that very clear to you. I could understand a newcomer to Linux feeling deceived. But you? You should Know Better.
That you have been avoiding the Catasrophe that is Gnome 3 for years demonstrates that you knew what was presented in Zorin 15 (Gnome3 desktop) Ultimate (Which also includes XFCE4 Desktop, too). You KNEW full well. Zorin 15 page: https://zorinos.com/download/
Does Not Claim to use any Other Desktop. It does not claim that it Improved Gnome 3 in any way. It makes NO Claims that should enable you to feel deceived- at all.

Next: You complain that Zorin Ultimate comes with fewer software pre-installs than Education. This is nonsensical. Zorin Education contains a great deal of Software aimed toward... EDUCATION... and kids. It does not contain the same software as Ultimate. It is not about Quantity. It is about Application.
And ALL the software on Ultimate and Education IS FREE; You can download and install ANY and ALL of the software included on either distro without paying a single penny toward any developers. And Zorin Education is Free because it is Aimed Toward Teachers and Students. It is Big and useful and Free and that is a COMPLIMENT toward the Zorin team, not an example of deception on you. You have your priorities twisted.
Your claim that Ultimate "lacks the features" of free Zorin Education is false. Pre-bundled software is not "features."
Zorin Education contains teaching and learning tools and Teaching Games. Ultimate contains Video editing software, Gaming Software, Music editing Software and much more- that is a Different Skill Set and User experience entirely. Does Education contain more FREE bundled software than Ultimate contains Free Bundled software? It might. But comparing that is comparing apples to oranges.
There is no deception there, either. You were not deceived.

Anything else that may have you feeling deceived is a mystery. I can only address the fallacies you have presented so far.

Lastly, your final complaint, is that the Zorin Team takes a long time to reply to you. Well, you are on a waiting list. That is how Real Life is. There are TWO people on the team, answering Every Question asked and you just gotta wait your turn, which has already been explained to you.
It has also been clear - Everywhere - that purchasing Ultimate is about supporting development, not about Buying Software. It's about expertly assembled software bundles that have the bugs, dependency issues, tweaks and modifications all worked out for you. Zorin Ultimate does NOT contain Expensive items, Locked Features, Or Special Butter. There is No where that claims that it does and everywhere that covers Zorin that explains what it is, how it works and what it contains.

Were you deceived? No.
You have got heap big buyers remorse is all it is. From an experienced Linux user that should very well Know better.
Do you deserve a refund?
No.
Will you get one? Probably.

And if you want to complain that this post is Rude:
Feel Free. Complain loudly. Call my boss. This is the Real World populated by Big Boys that put on their Big Boy pants in the morning. This... Right here? This is what FREE gets you. Cuz I ain't getting Paid To Deal With YOU.

WOW, (shakes head) Winkiller...

You come off sounding so entitled, and that entitlement and lack of humility, is one of the reasons why our country has gone to c*** in a hand basket.

Aravisian already explained it well. The Education version of the OS, as it always has been in all previous versions of Education that came before it, has always been geared to the education sector, for teachers and students. The OS is geared for that type of duty, and always has been, and that has not changed in over a decade of Zorin OS.

Ultimate version, has its always been, in all its previous versions, and still to this day, geared for the home user, for the full multi-media experience. Just as Aravisian has already explained, it comes with all the needed software for a full multi-media experience which includes games. All software made sure to be compatible with the OS so as to not give you any problems.

Additionally, Ultimate has always been, and still to this day, the way that you can easily donate to the developers, to support the developers. The money that Ultimate costs has gone up for each new version of Ultimate, yes this is most certainly true. But you were never paying for the software. Linux uses open source free software, and has access to tons of major repositories to get these apps.

Again, Ultimate is about supporting the developers. So when you pay money for Ultimate, you are supporting the developers, and you are paying for their support for you, should you have an issue. And also as Aravisian said, there are literally only two actually developers that I am aware of on the Zorin developing team.

Incase you hadn't noticed, our entire planet has been dealing with a Corona virus in literally every bloody country in the world. You know what the Corona virus does? It makes people sick, it kills some people, it disrupts people's lives, it makes people homeless, it disrupts manufacturing and other companies. In other words, Zorin dev's have lives just like us all, they arn't super hero's.

You can't expect them to jump up immediately and say HOW HIGH when you call. They will get to your support ticket, when they are able. Again, Zorin dev's have lives other then Linux. And again, the Corona virus has called much disruption in our everyday lives. I think what you need Winkiller, is to take a **** called humility. Another thing you should learn to do, is to be grateful.

Be grateful that you arn't sick. Be grateful that you arn't homeless like many I have recently come to know. Be grateful for people who are willing to help you. If you have a lot of family who still support you, be grateful that you still have family, not everybody does. Be grateful for the Zorin team dev's, who have created different versions of operating systems, which cater to people needs, and help improve their lives.

Ohhhh, and since you made a big deal about the Education version of Zorin OS. You sound like an adult to me, so you probably won't appreciate this point as much if you were a child. But do you know what all our children are facing in this country because of Covid-19? Have you ever thought how difficult it is for them to grow up in a new world that we never did? Kids can't even go to school, because the situation with the Corona Virus is so real.

I remember when I was in school, it was a germ factory, we got sick every year, some kids got sick seemed like every week of the year. So with how easy it was to get sick then, think about how easily it would be to contract the Corona virus? So what are kids to do? Well, they have to be homescooled! And how are the kids to be education in modern day using the home schooling method? Will they be using old fashioned antiquated school books?

NO! Those days are long over. Kids will be using computer's and tablets. And just what wonderful piece of software might a lot of kids be using on their computers these days? Ohhhh I don't know, perhaps Zorin OS Education? Exactly! So there is much to be grateful for, from the Zorin team devs. Please take the humility ****, and learn a little respect, as will as how to appreciate, and be grateful.

As for me ... I couldn't possibly comment! It's all been said for me by the two previous posts!

Swarfendor437 wrote:As for me ... I couldn't possibly comment! It's all been said for me by the two previous posts!

That is because we "feel deceived" by a person that claimed that they were disappointed in Zorin because of the Panel behavior and desktop functionality, only to have that person completely 'out' himself that he has known about Gnome desktop for many years and actively used Mate because of the Gnome Panel behavior and desktop functionality.

Agreed!

SWARF & Aravisian

I just couldn't let it slide. I felt the need to educate said person, give them a dose of reality, and in hopes that it would wake them up, and make them realize.

Believe it or not, I see stuff like from said person everyday in real life, with drivers on the road, who think they own the road, and that you should just stay behind them at all times, and that they can park in any parking spot they want, regardless of the outcome, hence, blocking first responders, cause they needed to get a soda pop.

We live in a new world, it sucks. But if we can't learn to give people respect as a common decency, then as humans were doomed to fail. The childish entitlement behavior needs to end as well.

Just switch to xfce, I use it in Zorin and I can right click everywhere

Doncic wrote:Just switch to xfce, I use it in Zorin and I can right click everywhere

@Doncic - you need to read the thread more thoroughly - the OP is an experienced Linux User whose just griping about the fact that Ultimate edition isn't Education edition - in a nutshell!

Swarfendor437 wrote:

Doncic wrote:Just switch to xfce, I use it in Zorin and I can right click everywhere

@Doncic - you need to read the thread more thoroughly - the OP is an experienced Linux User whose just griping about the fact that Ultimate edition isn't Education edition - in a nutshell!

I read the thread and since he is an experienced linux user, as others suggested, he can switch ( I wouldn't be able)

Doncic wrote:

Swarfendor437 wrote:

Doncic wrote:Just switch to xfce, I use it in Zorin and I can right click everywhere

@Doncic - you need to read the thread more thoroughly - the OP is an experienced Linux User whose just griping about the fact that Ultimate edition isn't Education edition - in a nutshell!

I read the thread and since he is an experienced linux user, as others suggested, he can switch ( I wouldn't be able)

A DE is NOT an application!

Swarfendor437 wrote:A DE is NOT an application!

It is more involved to install and run a different D.E. than it is a Movie player. But it is completely within the range of a new user, too.
That aside, Zorin Ultimate comes with Zorin lite Ultimate.

Swarfendor437 wrote:
A DE is NOT an application!

ok but somehow it can be installed, I suppose, sorry