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Zorin OS 15 Feedback (Final release - Core and Ultimate)

Swarfendor437

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:09:31 pm

Starting this as have a few concerns! Initially, only libzeitgeist was installed, but somehow the whole plethora of 'grit' has got installed and when you come to uninstall it points to Unity Lens (this was the Amazon spyware of Ubuntu). I have now got rid of all things zeitgeist and this has led to the loss of nautilus - I'm not too worried as I am using Thunar in its place - if you are going to do the same then remember to install Thunar first before removing zeitgeist. I was also concerned to see tracker-store, tracker miner which uses excessive CPU - to disable follow this guide here:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/346211/ ... ry-startup

Swarfendor437

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:27:47 pm

OK, looks like Zeitgeist is too integral a part of Nautilus for Zorin to work properly ... I am now considering whether to stick with Zorin. I'll let you know what I'm going to do once I have PM'd Team Zorin. :(

AZorin

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:52:07 pm

While Zorin OS includes Zeitgeist – as it's a hard dependency of Nautilus (see below) – we have made sure not to include Tracker in the stable version of Zorin OS 15 primarily due to its performance issues in its current form. The Settings app (gnome-control-center) gives the option to enable/disable activity logging by opening the "Privacy" pane, clicking on "Usage & History" and toggling the "Recently Used" switch.

However, if you wish to remove the Zeitgeist library from your system completely, we have recently published a software update to our metapackages which now make it easier to uninstall Zeitgeist without removing the "zorin-os-desktop" metapackage (which would've otherwise cause system instability over time). Please note that the process of removing Zeitgeist will need to uninstall Nautilus (to be replaced by another file browser like Nemo or Thunar) alongside some non-essential packages, and will affect the desktop icon settings in Zorin Appearance. The Zeitgeist library is needed by Nautilus for the code that displays some file metadata and the "Recent files" page, which is a feature that a number of users have told us is helpful and saves them a lot of time.

If you wish to remove Zeitgeist completely, you can follow these 3 steps:
  1. Firstly, please make sure that you have installed the latest updates from the Software Updater.
  2. Install a file browser that will replace Nautilus and set it up. For example, the following guide details how to replace Nautilus with Nemo: https://itsfoss.com/install-nemo-file-manager-ubuntu/
  3. Uninstall Zeitgeist and its dependant packages (including Nautilus) by running this command in the Terminal: sudo apt remove libzeitgeist-2.0-0
I've tested these steps and, so far, haven't noticed any stability issues in the system.

Aravisian

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:51:19 pm

It sounds like if a person really wants to keep Nautilus and wants rid of Zeitgeist, they are up a creek without a paddle. This would be on the Developers of those, not on the distros that use them, however.
Personally, I find Nautilus adequate, but I prefer Nemo and Thunar. SpaceFM is simple but powerful, if you are not worried about pretty pretty looks. It adapts to applied themes and icons generally, but no higher customizations than that.
Other options are Dolphin, Krusader, Konqueror, PCMan. No idea how well these work on Zorin. MY only point, just speaking as ol' me... I wouldn't shed a tear for losing Nautilus.

Swarfendor437

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:21:22 am

Thanks for the input guys I'm going to stay. The crucial bit of information about tracker not in stable makes sense as I upgraded from Beta without fresh install. Will get round to installing Ultimate at some point but still need VB on current to finish the 'Unofficial Manual'. ;) :D

Swarfendor437

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:54:03 pm

My first hiccup (hiccough) on Zorin 15 Beta/Final via updates today. Was checking if a printer in storage still working and attached to Notebook with Zorin 15 on it. It picked up the Canon MG2100 straight away. Somewhere down the line and don't know if it was by tweaking it not to record any jobs I then got 'Cups Server/ices not running'. Having searched the internet using Ubuntu 18.04 as my search criteria there appears to be a bug in Cups on 18.04 (=Zorin 15) which led another user to go back to Ubuntu 16.04 (=Zorin 12). One of the issues I noticed is that when you run the Help | Troubleshoot - it advises you to go to System | Administration | Services - which you would get on a traditional gnome desktop! Perhaps there is an issue once more with systemd? :(

Swarfendor437

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:35:34 pm

Within the last week I have left my Zorin 15 Core running and left unattended whilst downloading or transcoding a file - when I get back to it the system has frozen and I have to reboot - mouse and keyboard are unresponsive.

jcartner-young

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:26:57 pm

Hi all. Hope you're all well.

Just feeding back my feelings and observations on this version of Zorin OS...

I have just installed Zorin OS 15 as my previous Zorin OS 12 got a bit mangled beyond rescue.

I have to say, I am not overly impressed by where Zorin OS is headed.

I started on Zorin 9 (Core or Lite, I can't remember) and it was simply amazing. I was astounded by the ease with which I could configure Compiz to improve the window management, I had customised the Gnome panels and even audio worked flawlessly without distortion or hiccups.

Now, come to Zorin 15 and I have come to detest the 'snap'-type windows (wasted screen space, lack of a menu bar and most of the established interface elements. I am not a fan of having things hidden away without being able to intuitively get to them. Also, now my web cam video is fine, but the audio is completely useless.

It is hard finding fixes for issues I have with Zorin 15 as there are not really any established resources.

Using Ubuntu how-tos is what broke my last Zorin install - I was trying to replace the file manager - Nautilus is simply awful.

I couldn't simply 'make-do' with adequate software, I want the ability to choose once more.

The ONLY reason I had to move away from Zorin 9 (was not my decision) was the libraries were out of date and wouldn't support newer FireFox or TeamViewers (not without overhauling major parts, and I really can't be bothered with all the running around and 'try this' solutions.) So, I upgraded to Zorin 12.3 - I was nauseated by the awful 'snap' interface windows, which completely look out of place - no theming support at all and the standard, expected interface elements completely removed or simply hidden away, I decided to replace the bits I didn't like - BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG mistake.

Today, after installing Zorin OS 15 and running face-first into this 'snap' interface nauseam, basic functionality shortcomings and bugs, I have now decided to drop Zorin in favour of an alternative Linux distro.

It was good while it lasted, but now, in my admittedly singular and humble opinion, Zorin is now too broken to suit my needs. It's sad to see software regress, but it seems a popular move recently: Remove options, stupefy the interface... Oversimplify - Like the flat 'paper' icons (They are just nasty-looking. It looks like Windows 10 - Bland and flat.) I hope the fad will be recognised for the design void that it is.

IMHO, the last few versions have increasingly missed their mark when compared to previous versions, which seemed to be bang-on for me (and many others.)

Anyhoo, rant over... Onward and upwards, eh?

Hope you all enjoy the rest of the ride.

Take care, guys and thank you, Zorin, for the immense work you put into this project. Sorry to go, but I just haven't enjoyed using my computer as much recently.

Aravisian

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:50:56 am

jcartner-young wrote:I started on Zorin 9 (Core or Lite, I can't remember) and it was simply amazing. I was astounded by the ease with which I could configure Compiz to improve the window management, I had customised the Gnome panels and even audio worked flawlessly without distortion or hiccups.

Now, come to Zorin 15 and I have come to detest the 'snap'-type windows (wasted screen space, lack of a menu bar and most of the established interface elements. I am not a fan of having things hidden away without being able to intuitively get to them. Also, now my web cam video is fine, but the audio is completely useless.

It is hard finding fixes for issues I have with Zorin 15 as there are not really any established resources.

Using Ubuntu how-tos is what broke my last Zorin install - I was trying to replace the file manager - Nautilus is simply awful.

Everything you have just said here is actually addressing the changes made by Gnome to the Gnome desktop.

Now, I do agree that the Zorin Team does have some control as to whether to use GNome in their Distro or whether to include Compiz-Reloaded.

jcartner-young wrote:I couldn't simply 'make-do' with adequate software, I want the ability to choose once more.

The ONLY reason I had to move away from Zorin 9 (was not my decision) was the libraries were out of date and wouldn't support newer FireFox or TeamViewers (not without overhauling major parts, and I really can't be bothered with all the running around and 'try this' solutions.) So, I upgraded to Zorin 12.3 - I was nauseated by the awful 'snap' interface windows, which completely look out of place - no theming support at all and the standard, expected interface elements completely removed or simply hidden away, I decided to replace the bits I didn't like - BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG mistake.

Today, after installing Zorin OS 15 and running face-first into this 'snap' interface nauseam, basic functionality shortcomings and bugs, I have now decided to drop Zorin in favour of an alternative Linux distro.

It was good while it lasted, but now, in my admittedly singular and humble opinion, Zorin is now too broken to suit my needs. It's sad to see software regress, but it seems a popular move recently: Remove options, stupefy the interface... Oversimplify - Like the flat 'paper' icons (They are just nasty-looking. It looks like Windows 10 - Bland and flat.) I hope the fad will be recognised for the design void that it is.

IMHO, the last few versions have increasingly missed their mark when compared to previous versions, which seemed to be bang-on for me (and many others.)

Anyhoo, rant over... Onward and upwards, eh?

Hope you all enjoy the rest of the ride.

Take care, guys and thank you, Zorin, for the immense work you put into this project. Sorry to go, but I just haven't enjoyed using my computer as much recently.

Have you tried Zorin 12.4 Lite? It does not use the Gnome Desktop, but XFCE.


That said... but like SystemD and other micro software imilar examples, Gnome has its tendrils into everything. It used to be great. It has become something else.
You have some other options in KDE, using QT, but it will take learning, once again.

Swarfendor437

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:45:46 pm

Yes Team Zorin deserve a little sympathy as they are having to fork what Canonical are sadly throwing at Ubuntu updates. In addition to all this are poorly written kernel updates that have damaged endless 18.04 Ubuntu installs from what I have read lately. What you have to understand that Nautilus is embedded in the system but it does not preclude you from installing others like Thunar. Also I simply change the paper icons for Hicolor ones or an icon theme that takes my fancy. Also a pity you do not appear to have studied my unofficial manuals for 12 or 15 that could have helped you get through this quagmire of experiences. ;)

techguy

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:51:20 am

Hi all,
I switched definitely to Linux after being a Windows guy for almost 30 years – still use Windows 7 and 10 on KVM/QEMU.
I chose Zorin OS because it seems nicely laid out, simple to use, and almost ‘plug & play’.
I installed it on a Dell Precision M3800 (highest specs). I started to see some issue, e.g. docking station, touch-screen resolution, scale (fixed %s), display arrangement, huge spacing on the task bar (panels?), … The main menu has some issues – too slow when moving up or down (takes about 2 to 3 seconds before it moves). The fonts in certain windows are too washed out (light gray).
We have to add “always” the password to install every new software in the software ‘store’ - once inside it would be enough one time, except if for instance 10 min of inactivity would pass.
Nothing that could be fixed but a pain for someone who is not so technical.
Still have more trials to do before thinking to train companies on it.
Thanks for your efforts.

Aravisian

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:42:28 am

techguy wrote:I installed it on a Dell Precision M3800 (highest specs). I started to see some issue, e.g. docking station, touch-screen resolution, scale (fixed %s), display arrangement,

techguy wrote: huge spacing on the task bar (panels?)

That would be GNome and sadly... We, as users, cannot seem to ever get Gnome to listen to us instead of themselves.
It makes no sense, really... Gnome combines the titlebar and headerbar and toolbar all into one unit under the claim of doing it to save screen space and then makes the panel HUGE and makes it difficult to change it.
techguy wrote:The main menu has some issues – too slow when moving up or down (takes about 2 to 3 seconds before it moves). The fonts in certain windows are too washed out (light gray).

I wonder if you might check your DPI and also check your display drivers. Nouveu is recommended, but just checking your X-window drivers may be good enough. I had similar issues on Zorin with Gnome desktop and each time, I installed the latest graphics drivers to resolve.
techguy wrote:We have to add “always” the password to install every new software in the software ‘store’ - once inside it would be enough one time, except if for instance 10 min of inactivity would pass..

This is standard on all Linux, and is a very good security feature. I always make my password something I can type very fast and easily.
At first, I used to groan at the constant pw prompts, but I have gotten used to it. I like the security.
However, you can set it to prompt only once.
http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/201 ... ntu-18-04/
https://ccm.net/faq/8332-disable-the-as ... nder-linux

techguy

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:47:08 pm

Despite having a great simple to use product, still some work has to be done.

Problems so far:

1. Backup – when the laptop left alone and despite activity, i.e. backup activity, after the set of time to “sleep” is over the backup system stops.
2. Bluetooth – the response of the Bluetooth devices is slow and sometimes not working after the setup, we have to intervene manually, e.g. headsets, smartphones, …
3. Main menu – as far as we know it is not customizable, while adding new items it refuses customized icons or it only shows up when the system is logged out or rebooted as is the case with new installed software.
4. Some software can be installed via ‘Software’ but it does not show up in the menu or anywhere else.
5. Sound system – when we choose a device sometimes it resets to another one, e.g. analog output not even the built-in speakers (have to choose it manually again).
6. Sound in general – when we want to see a video in an internet browser often it does not work with the Bluetooth headset. We have to close the browser, to log out, to log in, to set up again the headset and then only to start the browser with the video.
7. When copying a huge file from the external hard-disk to a partition, times to times the system freezes for a few seconds, despite having more than enough resources (16 MB RAM lower than 20% with other programs running, 8 CPUs lower than 20% most of the time, almost no activity in network).
8. Followed the recommendation of updating the Nvidia drivers. Thereafter could not enter any more Zorin, except through Wayland which does not work with DualLink dispays. Had to do an automatic drivers replacement - worked again.
9. … among other small intricacies which we can live with it.

Aravisian

Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:18:06 pm

Wow, very thorough list. Great work.
techguy wrote:Problems so far:

1. Backup – when the laptop left alone and despite activity, i.e. backup activity, after the set of time to “sleep” is over the backup system stops.
2. Bluetooth – the response of the Bluetooth devices is slow and sometimes not working after the setup, we have to intervene manually, e.g. headsets, smartphones, …

I agree on both of these. Many have pointed out Bluetooth problems. I do not know the cause or solution, really.
techguy wrote:3. Main menu – as far as we know it is not customizable, while adding new items it refuses customized icons or it only shows up when the system is logged out or rebooted as is the case with new installed software.

Agreed, as well. The Zorin App Menu really IS excellent. It is the Arc Menu with modification. But it does lack customizability and while I can see from the developers point of view wanting to keep something -in house-, customization is a big part of linux.
techguy wrote:4. Some software can be installed via ‘Software’ but it does not show up in the menu or anywhere else.

Canonicals "Software Channel" is notoriously problematic on any distro. I use Synaptic when I want a package manager and for most any .deb file, I use command line install. Used to use Gdebi, but Gdebi does not work on Zorin 15 Lite, at all.
techguy wrote:5. Sound system – when we choose a device sometimes it resets to another one, e.g. analog output not even the built-in speakers (have to choose it manually again).
6. Sound in general – when we want to see a video in an internet browser often it does not work with the Bluetooth headset. We have to close the browser, to log out, to log in, to set up again the headset and then only to start the browser with the video.

Pulseaudio- another common complaint. Many people have trouble with the sound on Zorin 15.
techguy wrote:7. When copying a huge file from the external hard-disk to a partition, times to times the system freezes for a few seconds, despite having more than enough resources (16 MB RAM lower than 20% with other programs running, 8 CPUs lower than 20% most of the time, almost no activity in network).

Do you find this unusual? Please say so if so.
In the meantime: Linux does not need to be defragged like M.S. Windows does. This is because unlike Windows, Linux OS's allocate an appropriate amount of space for each item, keeping it together with free space tailing for updates or upgrades. Windows just throws it to the next open block, scattering the data all over the drive.
However, when transferring a large file, information about that file may suggest a need to re-allocate space. This can cause occasional hang time in a file transfer and is not related to resources being used, but to calculating the new space needed.
techguy wrote:8. Followed the recommendation of updating the Nvidia drivers. Thereafter could not enter any more Zorin, except through Wayland which does not work with DualLink dispays. Had to do an automatic drivers replacement - worked again.

I never said anything about Nvidia...

You have done some very perceptive testing and detailed a lot in a very short time and concise post. You made it look easy.

techguy

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:56:07 am

Forgot two other points:

1. Zorin Connect and the Firewall (it is valid for other connectivities too when using the firewall [when used of course**]):
When connecting to a smartphone, we have to disconnect each time the firewall, the reconnect it.
The recommendation is that a firewall exception should be given to the user (of course with 'friendly' words) to have a seamless connection.
** The recommendation is that the firewall should be connected by default (visually) - users may have peace of mind.

2. The 'Keyboard Brightness' is not functioning properly or not at all.

Other recommendations:
[*] It would be good to show a percentage activity with the sliders.
[*] Display scale: please put more % buttons (125, 150, 175, ... [+25%] or a slider with % displayed.
[*] Desktop: on the contextual menu, add a button to create a customized link either to a file, folder or URI (URL).
[*] More and more companies are switching to Linux systems, notably to Ubuntu-based distros. It would be good to think about developing a more friendly GUI anti-virus system, e.g. ClamAV, and install and activate it by default, i.e. downloading automatically the updates.***
*** I know that Linux systems are inherently more resistant than Windows systems, but it is a matter of time before black hackers find ways to come in through "disguised" files, e.g. automatic command to encrypt all the files (ransomware).

Swarfendor437

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:42:11 pm

With regards to 1. I have already posted the exception to get this to work elsewhere (I need to update the unofficial manual accordingly):

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14959&hilit=+zorin+connect&start=10#p67596

With regards to 2. If we are talking illuminated keyboard, as I have stated elsewhere, hardware in general was made for 'that other OS'. ;) :D

techguy

Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:03:04 pm

Point 2 is controlled via the "BIOS", at least the Dell systems.

Aravisian

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:26:21 pm

techguy wrote:Point 2 is controlled via the "BIOS", at least the Dell systems.

Swarfendor is still correct. BIOS on hardware that is designed for Windows. It does not make a difference that you refer to the language of the hardware.

techguy

Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:48:39 pm

So far as I read, the next Ubuntu LTS (20.04?) will support the UEFI. More and more laptops have UEFI and keyboard illumination.
Sometimes there is a need for the keyboard illumination - esp. in areas of obscurity.
I think we have to wait until then.

Aravisian

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:34:39 am

Illuminated keyboard helps, a lot. I have a usb plugged in little led light over mine.

Swarfendor437

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:45:30 pm

Zorin 15/15.1 have always supported UEFI as the partition needed for it is in GParted selection when choosing the best method of installation, the 'something else' method. As already stated this is a OS driven hardware issue.
So for example a Nova Custom notebook would have this with Zorin installed on it!

https://configurelaptop.eu/product/clev ... u/?ref=744

Swarfendor437

Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:08:33 pm

Having some issues with Pictures folder right-click set as desktop background is not working - anyone else?

techguy

Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56:16 am

Suggestions for Zorin 15 Core improvements (user interface):

1. Flash permanently new messages as they arrive, maybe through a symbol or a number, in the tray (right down side of the screen with the already popup notice on the top screen) – very easily we tend to forget that there are messages
2. Add a sound library to choose from – new email arrived, new chat message, new …
3. Change position of deleted or other messages, these interfere with the underneath folders on Files
4. When saving a document the focus remains on search instead of saving as ‘filename’ - in a hurry the file does not save because it is “searching”
5. Please add a shortcut launcher – it is extremely difficult to do a ‘cryptic’ textfile.desktop (often people have to resort searching the internet, sometimes nothing useful to be found) – it is a waste of time
6. Easier or install drag and drop for menu items (in start menu, in task bar or panel, ...)

General Feedback:
Developers should think in terms of everyday users and not in technicalities. Most of the users are not interested in doing technical things, but doing their job.
This is a big problem in the Linux community. We are not in the technical hyperspace rather in the real world – the simple user. Microsoft already understood this more than 15 years ago. They are working on this.

With such a huge FREE Linux community actively participating in the development, still many did not understand the importance having the user in mind. Zorin is in the right way, but still a long way to go.

After some months of use, spoke to Zorin users and already some start to miss Microsoft Windows – easier to use (installation, parameterize, usability, …). Not only Zorin, but other distros also. Microsoft knows that and plays on that.

Hope that this criticism will help to improve things and not just shift the responsibility to others.

Aravisian

Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:36:37 am

techguy wrote:Hope that this criticism will help to improve things and not just shift the responsibility to others.

You have a great attitude about how to address concerns.

techguy wrote:Suggestions for Zorin 15 Core improvements (user interface):

1. Flash permanently new messages as they arrive, maybe through a symbol or a number, in the tray (right down side of the screen with the already popup notice on the top screen) – very easily we tend to forget that there are messages
2. Add a sound library to choose from – new email arrived, new chat message, new …
3. Change position of deleted or other messages, these interfere with the underneath folders on Files
4. When saving a document the focus remains on search instead of saving as ‘filename’ - in a hurry the file does not save because it is “searching”
5. Please add a shortcut launcher – it is extremely difficult to do a ‘cryptic’ textfile.desktop (often people have to resort searching the internet, sometimes nothing useful to be found) – it is a waste of time
6. Easier or install drag and drop for menu items (in start menu, in task bar or panel, ...)

1-3 : Notifications, Gnome-Shell.
4: Gedit - Gnome Text Editor.
5-6: Gnome-Shell which includes Gnome Panel.
As you can see, each of these programs are part of Gnome Desktop and not developed by Zorin. Those are part of the Desktop Enviroment and while Zorin Core and Ultimate offers them as the base package, you have control. You have Options as to what to do with your machine.
Cinnamon D.E. works almost Flawlessly on Zorin. I know because I install it all the time in order to test projects I am working on for Cinnamon Desktop.
You can use Mate, XFCE or even Fluxbox or Openbox. You have the power. If you don't like Gnome (I don't) don't give them your attention. Give it to another Desktop Environment that has shown itself worthwhile.
Sadly, many have voiced the same concerns you have. For many years.
Gnome disagrees.
You may consider adding your voice to the crowd appealing to Gnome to stop their foolishness. It HAS had some effect in the past... Not on those in charge of Gnome Development, but on the Stakeholders of Gnome that then addressed the development team.

However, we as a community of Linux users can be more open and inviting of QT as an alternative to Gnome and see about encouraging its development.

techguy wrote:General Feedback:
Developers should think in terms of everyday users and not in technicalities. Most of the users are not interested in doing technical things, but doing their job.
This is a big problem in the Linux community. We are not in the technical hyperspace rather in the real world – the simple user. Microsoft already understood this more than 15 years ago. They are working on this.

With such a huge FREE Linux community actively participating in the development, still many did not understand the importance having the user in mind. Zorin is in the right way, but still a long way to go.

After some months of use, spoke to Zorin users and already some start to miss Microsoft Windows – easier to use (installation, parameterize, usability, …). Not only Zorin, but other distros also. Microsoft knows that and plays on that.

Microsofts attitude toward the user is that the user is dumb.

Users must be told what to do and thought for.

As you said above about shifting responsibility, we as users must not shift responsibility away from ourselves, either. I would propose that you and I disagree on this and we stand at opposing sides on a spectrum and what would actually work probably is somewhere in the middle.
As you gave your POV, I will give mine.

Many users just want a free operating system,not to work, but to browse the net, look at cragislist and play games. And when some detail of that Free Operating System doesn't behave as it should or even- merely how they want it to...- Many often will get angry, accusative and abusive with the developer.
And I could argue that Microsoft has taught them this entitled behaviour.
The idea that the users are all diligently working and focused on their jobs is not as accurate as we would like to believe. We are responsible for the maintenance of our homes and our cars. We are responsible for our lawn machines. Our children. Our pets. While Microsoft happily will lift responsibility from us for our computers, it comes at a price and not all of it solely financial.
Microsoft uses OUR Machines as Free Servers for them. And charges the users a fee.
Microsoft is hard to use. Much of the time, installations didn't go right and unlike Linux where I have access to everything and can use "sudo dpkg -i" and whatever else - Microsoft installations come with a Bloated Installer that when it fails, you are S.O.L.
Need customer Service to sort that out? Good luck.
You are right that Microsoft offers more bells and whistles that take your ownership, management, responsibility and control over the machine away as Usability.
But is it? When a package goes south, you can fix it in Modular Linux much more easily than in Windows where you spend a couple weeks trying to figure out some way of making "Microsoft Repair Utility" ACTUALLY work until giving up and forking out booku dallahs to a professional at a shop somewhere.
Microsoft does not merely play on the idea that many users want an easy time with their computer- they encourage laziness and thoughtlessness. The more control you give them, the more they want.
Microsoft appeals to the Lowest Common Denominator and then Force-fits all other users into that mould. Using Microsoft, you don't have a choice.
And what is Microsoft offering us? Windows 8? Vista? Windows TEN!? The most bloated, slowest, resource hogging operating system money can buy? A Brand New machine with average specs can bog down so badly on Windows 10 you are convinced you have some kind of Virus and a 15 year old Notebook will ROCK on Zorin Lite and throw Antix on that beast and see blazing speeds that leaves Microsoft coughing in the dust.
All while offering more User control, modular software, much more adaptive installation with a large variety of installation building at your disposal, no registry, no defragging and NO using your PC as THEIR server.

So, please understand... I do not mean to be rude. However, WE the Users... Do Not Want Microsoft Linux.
Not now, not ever.
We want the responsibility of our machines.
We value User Control over User Friendliness, any day.

The responsibility is not on the developers to pander to every whim of every user. It is on us, to learn, to improve ourselves, every day. To be a Better Linux user each day than we were before. It is OUR responsibility to operate the machine, not for others to operate it for us. It is our responsibility to customize or tweak the settings and the more of that control we give away- the less we will have. Of course. The less we will have to tweak the settings, to customize, to make our machines -OURS.

techguy

Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:21:38 am

Dear Aravisian,

This is what I was afraid of – your response. It shies away the business community and some of the private too.

You think like a technocrat – no offense. I think like a ‘business’ person.
I do not have a problem with technicalities. Actually I love challenges and changes.

The problem is that there is a lack of technicians who understand Linux systems, even if it is quite “simple” to use, of course with a small learning curve (terminal).

I cannot handle everybody, esp. small medium enterprises – too many.
Esp. now that many want to switch over to Linux due to the ransomware. Of course, we should not fool ourselves, ransomware will hit the Linux community when ripe.

If the ‘dumb’ buy a new computer, Windows is already installed. Many think, why the change?
It is not up to the accountant, or the clerk, or shop assistant, or ... to do changes to their computers – many do not have clue. Many small businesses do not have huge budgets like enterprises to make changes to their computers.

That is the problem, because the majority of the businesses are small enterprises (in Europe they make ab. 80 to 90%).

That’s the reason we should make it as simple to use as with Windows. Like I said, Zorin OS is in the right way, but they should work along with the opensource community distros to make it simple to use, with all the whistlebells already included (no need to search endlessly forums for it), and robust against any intrusions.

I am willing, many small businesses are willing, to pay for a Linux system, but they have to provide something that works like Windows, of course for the ‘dumb’.

I hope this will help ‘distros’ to evolve in the right direction. If not it will remain a small niche for technocrats – sad because a lot of business could be generated in terms of services, examples exist like Redhat, Suse, … (of course they charge ludicrous amounts of money, but it is a model to follow).

Best regards.

Aravisian

Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:48:05 am

techguy wrote:This is what I was afraid of – your response. It shies away the business community and some of the private too.

It in no way does. You make the argument under the assumption that business, small or large, communities, libraries and any other user you wish to use as an example, must by default, be utterly incapable of using Linux. That it is just too hard to use. Or perhaps that they would struggle to use it unduly.
But this is demonstrably untrue.
You are correct that it is the Microsoft attitude, however, it wasn't true when they made the assumption, either.
Linux IS easy to use. Your own concerns that you addressed above were all about trivial convenience. This is perfectly acceptable but does not demonstrate that Linux is very difficult to use and not about something being so difficult to use that people would refuse to use it.
And I am going to wax politically incorrect and go ahead and say it:
I know too many boneheads that successfully use Linux.

techguy wrote:The problem is that there is a lack of technicians who understand Linux systems, even if it is quite “simple” to use, of course with a small learning curve (terminal).
And yet, look at its success in spite of that lack of technicians that have a much more thorough understanding of Linux than you or I.
techguy wrote:I(t) cannot handle everybody, esp. small medium enterprises – too many.

Linux is currently handling its users in spite of the lack of technicians like Microsoft has, because Linux is more solid, adaptable and modular. In other words, less technicians are needed.

techguy wrote:Of course, we should not fool ourselves, ransomware will hit the Linux community when ripe.

Sad agreement.
techguy wrote:If the ‘dumb’ buy a new computer, Windows is already installed. Many think, why the change?
It is not up to the accountant, or the clerk, or shop assistant, or ... to do changes to their computers – many do not have clue. Many small businesses do not have huge budgets like enterprises to make changes to their computers.

Even very small business can easily afford to buy an operating system. Most small business balance an overhead each month from several thousand dollars to tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per month. That is Overhead, I refer to, not net profit.
techguy wrote:That’s the reason we should make it as simple to use as with Windows. Like I said, Zorin OS is in the right way, but they should work along with the opensource community distros to make it simple to use, with all the whistlebells already included (no need to search endlessly forums for it), and robust against any intrusions.

Why bother if Microsoft already offers that market? If you want it to be pretty much the same as Microsoft-- then why not just use Microsoft? Is it because Linux is Free?
Or because it is Free Open Source? As I said above, almost any business, even a tiny one, can very easily afford to buy the O.S. Many businesses, small and large, are still using Windows XP and there is this huge fuss about M.S. dropping support.
How long did that product key last those businesses?
Secondly, we return to the first reply in this post: The assumption that Linux is so hard to use. It really is not. The only point you can make is that if you have a clerk or shop assistant that never used Linux, it may be harder on them than if you had Windows because they are unfamiliar with the system.
But this, too, falls down.
Most businesses actually use proprietary software that employees have never used before and the business trains them how to use it. Linux is no different and it is easier to use than many business software packages are.
Further, you can even set up a Linux machine for many mundane tasks, put a theme that emulates Windows look on it and lock down the file folders and bam- the users using it do what they do on it none the wiser that it wasn't Microsoft! This is not uncommon, our local library does it.

techguy wrote:I am willing, many small businesses are willing, to pay for a Linux system, but they have to provide something that works like Windows, of course for the ‘dumb’.

No, they really don't. Many business people that think like a businessman do not follow such a mantra, either. Would you start a Firearms company geared toward the Dumb Firearms handler?
How about Chainsaws for Dumb people?
Use your imagination...
And I must repeat the fallacy: The assumption that People WANT dumbed down things. Generally, people do not. Generally, people want control.
I could argue that ta great number of Windows Users are frustrated with Windows and dislike it and miserable using it. But they have no reason to believe in any alternatives, especially having never tried any of them. They have no reason to understand that they CAN have a better option.
And finally, Mac. Apple- one of the richest and most successful computer companies on Earth- ain't exactly failing business-wise and Mac OS ain't exactly Windows. It's actually as easy as most Linux Distributions and is Unix based. It's very similar.
Just sayin'.
techguy wrote:I hope this will help ‘distros’ to evolve in the right direction.

The fallacy here is your assertion that your opinion is, in fact, the "Right Direction."
I have given cause above to believe otherwise.

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. This is ONE thing about the internet that is a benefit to all- The Free Exchange of Ideas.
We may be opinionated and we may disagree, but in the end, we both believe in something and we both want to improve things. Please continue to do so.
But I do hope you will consider my thoughts and suggestions just as I take time to consider yours.

techguy

Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:03:33 pm

Thanks for your opinion. These conversations has already over 15 years ago with my students ‘Linux vs. Windows’, even among some businesses - I think it will never change :-)

OK, I will try to limit to suggestions and improvements.

Just one question: Is it here the right forum for suggestions?

Aravisian

Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:11:42 pm

techguy wrote:OK, I will try to limit to suggestions and improvements.

Not on my account. I enjoy healthy debate and the free exchange of ideas. It's a benefit, as I said. Gets the brain working and the mind thinking about other points of view.

techguy wrote:Just one question: Is it here the right forum for suggestions?

I would say Feedback would be it, really.
If you follow your own suggestions and develop a product or patch, you can stick that in Development or in Community Contributions. I am just a member of the forum and am making my observation, I cannot say what the administrative side may think. But the Moderatorship and Administration here seem pretty relaxed.

Swarfendor437

Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:10:46 pm

techguy wrote:Thanks for your opinion. These conversations has already over 15 years ago with my students ‘Linux vs. Windows’, even among some businesses - I think it will never change :-)

OK, I will try to limit to suggestions and improvements.

Just one question: Is it here the right forum for suggestions?


You can always PM AZorin, lead developer, that is likely to be the best route and mark it with Exclamation to get his attention. ;) :D

I haven't checked which version of Firefox is installed with Education and not sure if Business edition has Firefox ESR - that is the only version that can be 'locked down' to prevent users looking at things they shouldn't be looking at in work/education time. ;) :D

Evolution is the de facto email client as it is the only one that is compatible with AD (Active Directory).

HazNoSoul

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:07:27 pm

Ultimate is looking pretty good team. I've been distro hopping for a long time and am finally fed up with Windows 10 (only use it for gaming and as my Drobo 5D3 connection to the network now)

I currently daily Zorin OS 15 U on my Dell Inspiron 7573 2 in 1. When I dock with the Dell WD15, the audio gets selected to the audio output for me. I haven't been able to find out if there's a way to switch audio outputs yet or if this can be turned off for individual docks. I do see something about Thunderbolt support (excited to put this on a system with that and test it out... would be freaking sick if I could get Z 15 and Drobo 5D3 to play nice :D)

Swarfendor437

Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:25:49 pm

Well, I've been hanging back to make sure I have not been dreaming! With the release of 15.2 and the latest kernel ... my soundblaster Audigy RX 5/7.1 sound card is now operational at every boot (just no login sound though not important). :D :D :D

Andhika24kd

Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:01:23 am

Most Qt based app (e.g. VLC, Qbittorrent) will look ugly on Zorin OS 15.2 (and possibly older release), especially when using the dark theme. There are few workarounds such as using adwaita-qt, Kvantum, or QGnomePlatform.

I noticed that adwaita-qt is installed by default, but unused since the
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita"
or
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita-dark"
does not exist on the environment variable. Enabling them will make Qt apps a bit better but the color scheme still doesn't fit Zorin OS style (so basically the app is still ugly).

On the other hand, there is no easy way to install Kvantum and QGnomePlatform on Zorin OS. Both of them don't exist on the current set of repositories so I need to 'make' it manually. Maybe provide (better) Qt theme support on future release?

Swarfendor437

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:31:56 pm

Andhika24kd wrote:Most Qt based app (e.g. VLC, Qbittorrent) will look ugly on Zorin OS 15.2 (and possibly older release), especially when using the dark theme. There are few workarounds such as using adwaita-qt, Kvantum, or QGnomePlatform.

I noticed that adwaita-qt is installed by default, but unused since the
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita"
or
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita-dark"
does not exist on the environment variable. Enabling them will make Qt apps a bit better but the color scheme still doesn't fit Zorin OS style (so basically the app is still ugly).

On the other hand, there is no easy way to install Kvantum and QGnomePlatform on Zorin OS. Both of them don't exist on the current set of repositories so I need to 'make' it manually. Maybe provide (better) Qt theme support on future release?


You can always add LXQt as an alternative environment like I have done? ;) :D

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15920

Aravisian

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:54:42 pm

Andhika24kd wrote:Most Qt based app (e.g. VLC, Qbittorrent) will look ugly on Zorin OS 15.2 (and possibly older release), especially when using the dark theme. There are few workarounds such as using adwaita-qt, Kvantum, or QGnomePlatform.

I noticed that adwaita-qt is installed by default, but unused since the
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita"
or
Code:
QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME="adwaita-dark"
does not exist on the environment variable. Enabling them will make Qt apps a bit better but the color scheme still doesn't fit Zorin OS style (so basically the app is still ugly).

On the other hand, there is no easy way to install Kvantum and QGnomePlatform on Zorin OS. Both of them don't exist on the current set of repositories so I need to 'make' it manually. Maybe provide (better) Qt theme support on future release?

That is a good suggestion. As I use mostly dark themes, it is a glaring problem for me, as well.
The work around that I use is as follows:
Install the style plugins
Code:
sudo apt install qt5-style-plugins

Code:
sudo apt install qt5

Refer to using the gtk style (gtk2)
Code:
echo "export QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME=gtk2" >> ~/.profile