Zorin OS/Zorin Group Background

Hi. I recently joined the Zorin Group Forum.
I had then briefly tried OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, but so many bugs are on it, so I'm back (and this time sticking with) Zorin OS.
Just a few questions however.
1. Can anyone tell me a bit more about Zorin/Zorin Group. How they started, how long ago, what they stand for, and a brief history. Other than what's already on Wikipedia which isn't much.
2. Is Zorin OS/Zorin Group a relatively big, medium or small sized company/group? I always have concerns with distros being too small, and having a very small user base, not because of lack of support, but I personally just don't like investing time (and sometimes money) into a distro that won't go anywhere, or is too small to keep up frequent, and future development.
3. Also while I am currently happy with Zorin OS and the performance I'm getting, particularly for gaming, I'd like to hear from others that have used/tried Pop OS which I really liked, but had performance issues in gaming and throughout the UI. Do you also notice better performance on Zorin OS? Did you have stutters in gaming frequently on Pop OS as I did (which made me try another Ubuntu based distro and brought me to Zorin OS)? And lastly, why should someone choose Zorin OS over Pop OS (generally speaking)?
Just curious to get some more info and opinions

Hi. I recently joined the Zorin Group Forum.
I had then briefly tried OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, but so many bugs are on it, so I'm back (and this time sticking with) Zorin OS.
Just a few questions however.
1. Can anyone tell me a bit more about Zorin/Zorin Group. How they started, how long ago, what they stand for, and a brief history. Other than what's already on Wikipedia which isn't much.
2. Is Zorin OS/Zorin Group a relatively big, medium or small sized company/group? I always have concerns with distros being too small, and having a very small user base, not because of lack of support, but I personally just don't like investing time (and sometimes money) into a distro that won't go anywhere, or is too small to keep up frequent, and future development.
3. Also while I am currently happy with Zorin OS and the performance I'm getting, particularly for gaming, I'd like to hear from others that have used/tried Pop OS which I really liked, but had performance issues in gaming and throughout the UI. Do you also notice better performance on Zorin OS? Did you have stutters in gaming frequently on Pop OS as I did (which made me try another Ubuntu based distro and brought me to Zorin OS)? And lastly, why should someone choose Zorin OS over Pop OS (generally speaking)?
Just curious to get some more info and opinions

Most here probably cannot supply much more.
Artyom and Kyrill Zorin began the Zorin OS project in 2008 when they were kids, around 12 and 14 years of age (Back then, Artyom looked a little bit like Harry Potter.) After watching their father struggle with switching from Windows OS to Linux OS, they decided to develop an OS that made the switchover easier on people. The first Zorin OS was released in 2009.

Yes, Zorin Group is Small. Very Small. It consists of the Following Members of the team:
Artyom Zorin
Kyrill Zorin
That's it.
But for two kids putting forth their First Operating System at near the age of Thirteen, they are still here. Partly because of many people along the way that believe in the project and assist, like Swarfendor, Zorinantwerp,MBMz10, Finston Pickle and many more. Partly because in spite of being Irish with Russian names, they are in fact Leprechauns with the magical ability to keep their cool and keep pace in spite of overwhelming odds.
I, like you, tried distro hopping and I have about twenty different Distro copies sitting on a shelf now due to that time. I am sticking with Zorin. Zorin is FAST with the updates and Faster with patches TO updates. Yes, occasionally an update breaks something. But more often, it is resolved when another updates comes out before I have had a chance to ask about it.

I wrote a lengthy post that may address your third question that I think would be better to reference as I felt about it at that time, than to try to replay it now:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14576

Point of order, the Zorins are of Ukrainian descent, born in Dublin ... and they started in 2008! (https://zorinos.com/about/). Their aim has been similar to Linspire, which is where I had been involved in the past in the Community Edition, Freespire. I was so impressed that there was still one distro helping to make Windows users move over to Linux. Once people become accomplished there is nothing to stop them trying other distributions, depending on their needs. I've used Zorin for some Windows games in the past the only problem being is that games tended to be written for that other OS! It is the only OS that I am aware of that fully integrates a screen reader with its Menu - I haven't as yet found any other distro capable of doing this. Sure they had issues with it in the earlier versions in that you had to use a different menu for Orca screen reader to work correctly but now they have a great system in Zorin 15, particularly with all the accessibility options available. The brothers are reliant on passing information on by word of mouth. I have tried to get my local employer, a local government, to take a look at ZorinOS but without success. It was such a great news event that Vicenzo in Italy, whose Public Service ditched Windows in its entirety, down to one great guy from there, alabano - the moderator for the Italian forum. Other great news is a greek who has introduced ZorinOS to replace Windows in elementary schools in Israel, and a recent retired IT guy helping to volunteer his services in Belgium for schools that cannot afford M$ pricing. I tend to use ZorinOS for personal use and moderating the forum - this is being posted on an old Dell Latitude E6500 with 2 Gb RAM running Zorin 15.2 Core.

Good interview here:

https://youtu.be/wQwomIhA9Hs

The only element I would disagree with Artyom is on Adobe Photoshop and other Adobe products being available for Linux, why? Let a professional sate why:
https://wecreate.digital/blog/why-we-sw ... ity-suite/

Would be far better to get Affinity Photo, Designer and Publisher for Linux.

Yes, Zorin Group is Small. Very Small. It consists of the Following Members of the team:
Artyom Zorin
Kyrill Zorin
That's it.

Thank you for your response.
Now personally, I would normally ditch a distro that I know is very small, or only has a few constant developers, in this case 2, not because I don't like or want to support them, but because of longevity and peace of mind reasons.
What about plans to branch out? Hire more full time developers? To ensure the future success of the project/distro.
Honestly, without a bigger dev team, even just slightly bigger, and therefore without any assurance that the project won't just end abruptly, it's making me think twice about my decision to keep using it, but I am trying to stick to it, and if the benefits outweigh the negatives, then I will.

Also off-topic question. I was told the other day in a different thread that in order to upgrade from Zorin 15 to Zorin 16 for example, I would need to do a clean install/wipe, which initially made me dread using the distro. On WIkipedia I found this: "The 12.x series was the last version of Zorin OS that required users to do a clean install. Since version 12.4, users were able to upgrade as normal via the systems update manager.".
And then on Linux Hint I found: "You can just click on Install Now to install all the new software updates that are available at that time"
So do I actually have to do a fresh install/wipe to upgrade versions? Based on those articles, it seems not, but I was told differently and now I'm confused.

Now personally, I would normally ditch a distro that I know is very small, or only has a few constant developers, in this case 2, not because I don't like or want to support them, but because of longevity and peace of mind reasons.
What about plans to branch out? Hire more full time developers? To ensure the future success of the project/distro.
Honestly, without a bigger dev team, even just slightly bigger, and therefore without any assurance that the project won't just end abruptly, it's making me think twice about my decision to keep using it, but I am trying to stick to it, and if the benefits outweigh the negatives, then I will.

Honestly, I think perspectives matter. I understand that you are using the number of developers as a guide. The best I can offer is that many things can be a guide, but are not a law set in stone.
To the best of my knowledge, yes the Zorin Team does wish to branch out. They do hire other developers on an as-needed basis, but I believe they desire having a full time team to join them.
Zorin 15 has really grown the interest in Zorin. In addition, Zorin 15 is now an option for Starlabs as a pre-installed O.S. on their computers.
I would not worry about the project ending abruptly. I cannot truly give you reassurance that the project will not end. But Abruptly? No.
I do not know what timescales you are thinking along, but with Zorin 16 in the works now, you are looking at many more years of Zorin, as it is.
The reason for this is Zorin Ultimate.
As Zorin does offer a paid version, they are obligated to maintain the LTS OS that they were paid for.

Also off-topic question. I was told the other day in a different thread that in order to upgrade from Zorin 15 to Zorin 16 for example, I would need to do a clean install/wipe, which initially made me dread using the distro. On WIkipedia I found this: "The 12.x series was the last version of Zorin OS that required users to do a clean install. Since version 12.4, users were able to upgrade as normal via the systems update manager.".
And then on Linux Hint I found: "You can just click on Install Now to install all the new software updates that are available at that time"
So do I actually have to do a fresh install/wipe to upgrade versions? Based on those articles, it seems not, but I was told differently and now I'm confused.

As it currently stands, yes: To upgrade the OS (15) to the Next OS (16), you must do a clean install and wipe. Personally, this does not fill me with fear since I back up in a particularly efficient and effective way and am known to wipe and reload out of the blue just to get a clean start.
But, for others, I know it can be trying.
Zorin Team is developing a "new-release-upgrade" system. But it is not yet in place and I cannot say when it will be as I am not one of the developers.
Some articles jumped the gun on when it would be available on Zorin.
Part of what makes it tricky is that Zorin will backport better software than what is offered int he Ubuntu Servers. For example, Zorin 15 backported shell 3.30; Ubuntu 18.04 uses 3.28.
This makes it so that the 'do-release-upgrade' command will read your system as requiring an update before it can do the new-release-upgrade, even though it is actually the other way around.

I cannot truly give you reassurance that the project will not end. But Abruptly? No.
I do not know what timescales you are thinking along, but with Zorin 16 in the works now, you are looking at many more years of Zorin, as it is.
The reason for this is Zorin Ultimate.
As Zorin does offer a paid version, they are obligated to maintain the LTS OS that they were paid for.

Zorin Team is developing a "new-release-upgrade" system. But it is not yet in place and I cannot say when it will be as I am not one of the developers.
Some articles jumped the gun on when it would be available on Zorin.
Part of what makes it tricky is that Zorin will backport better software than what is offered int he Ubuntu Servers. For example, Zorin 15 backported shell 3.30; Ubuntu 18.04 uses 3.28.
This makes it so that the 'do-release-upgrade' command will read your system as requiring an update before it can do the new-release-upgrade, even though it is actually the other way around

Thank you for your honest response.
I will admit the main reason why I was going to stick to Zorin was the feature of not having to do a clean install/wipe. Now that it's confirmed that I'll still have to for the time being, I can't see a reason to stick with it. As much as I like Zorin OS in terms of performance, personally there are just too many things for me, working against it, 1. being that I'll still have to do a fresh install/wipe, therefore it gives me no incentive to choose Zorin OS over another Linux based distro, and 2. the lack of a bigger development team. I don't know but that just really bugs me. I want peace of mind, I want a distro to be backed by a larger team, a fallback plan, etc.
I think I'll have to either go back to Manjaro, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Pop OS (which you can upgrade without wiping) and just put up with the slight bugs in them.

I will admit the main reason why I was going to stick to Zorin was the feature of not having to do a clean install/wipe. Now that it's confirmed that I'll still have to for the time being, I can't see a reason to stick with it. As much as I like Zorin OS in terms of performance, personally there are just too many things for me, working against it, 1. being that I'll still have to do a fresh install/wipe, therefore it gives me no incentive to choose Zorin OS over another Linux based distro,

That is a pretty big and understandable reason.
I believe that the absolute beauty of having many distros and much varied choice in distros on linux is in these very statements and preferences.

and 2. the lack of a bigger development team. I don't know but that just really bugs me. I want peace of mind, I want a distro to be backed by a larger team, a fallback plan, etc.
I think I'll have to either go back to Manjaro, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Pop OS (which you can upgrade without wiping) and just put up with the slight bugs in them.

This is where you and I are very different people.

I raised the issue with Zorin Team not very long ago about my concerns about Gnome being used on a Distro for welcoming refugees from Windows to Linux.
The Zorin Team expressed understanding of those concerns, but countered with a very Key Reason for using Gnome: Long term development and Support.
The Zorin Team was very emphatic of this point. And they would not be if they were going to cut and run.
In my observation, large teams can lack the care and concern for users and they can drop development at the drop of a hat.
I understand your point of view, but cannot agree with your degree of measure.
I have done a lot of distro-hopping. In the end, here I am. The reason why is because on Zorin, I have better software compatibility over-all, far fewer bugs, better performance and from that- peace of mind. I would rather enjoy Zorin now, even IF I had a fear (Which I don't) that development will stop, then put up with what drives me crazy elsewhere for the entire time through. This is a bit like disliking the performance of one car maker and liking the performance of another, but buying the car brand you dislike because you believe that company will still be around in thirty years and tolerating the car. I'll take the good car and have however many years it gives me before I need to tolerate the lesser car.

Aside from that, I avoid Rolling Releases like plague. They are unstable. The latest is usually not the greatest. Rolling releases are Bug Factories. They serve a great function: Finding the bugs.
But I would prefer to not be the one testing bugs on.
Since upgrading to the next release is problematic for the reasons above and since upgrading to the next LTS can be years apart... I can see where some would have less concern about what to do when upgrade happens. Many people switch out their hard drive or the whole computer before that time comes.

But as I said above, this is what makes having such a variety of choices in Linux a great thing. We can have utterly different perspectives and disagree, yet still be part of the same cause and both have our priorities met.
Even should you choose to stick long term with another distro, feel free to maintain your presence on the Zorin Forums. Your feedback helps the zorin Team examine user ideas and opinions.

This is where you and I are very different people.

I raised the issue with Zorin Team not very long ago about my concerns about Gnome being used on a Distro for welcoming refugees from Windows to Linux.
The Zorin Team expressed understanding of those concerns, but countered with a very Key Reason for using Gnome: Long term development and Support.
The Zorin Team was very emphatic of this point. And they would not be if they were going to cut and run.
In my observation, large teams can lack the care and concern for users and they can drop development at the drop of a hat.
I understand your point of view, but cannot agree with your degree of measure.
I have done a lot of distro-hopping. In the end, here I am. The reason why is because on Zorin, I have better software compatibility over-all, far fewer bugs, better performance and from that- peace of mind. I would rather enjoy Zorin now, even IF I had a fear (Which I don't) that development will stop, then put up with what drives me crazy elsewhere for the entire time through. This is a bit like disliking the performance of one car maker and liking the performance of another, but buying the car brand you dislike because you believe that company will still be around in thirty years and tolerating the car. I'll take the good car and have however many years it gives me before I need to tolerate the lesser car.

Aside from that, I avoid Rolling Releases like plague. They are unstable. The latest is usually not the greatest. Rolling releases are Bug Factories. They serve a great function: Finding the bugs.
But I would prefer to not be the one testing bugs on.
Since upgrading to the next release is problematic for the reasons above and since upgrading to the next LTS can be years apart... I can see where some would have less concern about what to do when upgrade happens. Many people switch out their hard drive or the whole computer before that time comes.

But as I said above, this is what makes having such a variety of choices in Linux a great thing. We can have utterly different perspectives and disagree, yet still be part of the same cause and both have our priorities met.
Even should you choose to stick long term with another distro, feel free to maintain your presence on the Zorin Forums. Your feedback helps the zorin Team examine user ideas and opinions.

I totally get and mostly agree with what you're saying. But in my opinion, Zorin OS has no real incentives to stay on it. For example, OTHER THAN performance for gaming, in my case, Pop OS is further ahead (20.04), bigger dev team, bigger company behind it AND you can upgrade the OS without having to do a reinstall/wipe.
So what I'm trying to get at is this: I think it would be in Zorin Groups best interest to provide a true reason for people to use/stick to the distro. Other than theming or a heavily modified DE (that I've re-modified anyway). The consumers can't know how it performs until they try it out...if they even do...but by having and advertising such features like a non-wipe upgrade ability, that's something that new users/distro hoppers can already be drawn to before even trying out the distro.
For me, the ONLY thing keeping me sticking around is the gaming performance I'm getting compared to other distro's...but take gaming out of the equation as not everyone games especially on Linux, then what's left? That is why unique features such as the non-wipe upgrading should be implemented and have priority during development. Its the unique features that draw in new users and it's those same features, that keep the users and what would make it stand out from other distros.

In the video link I provided in my previous response, Artyom hints at expansion in 2019, whether that happened i can't say. I too am just a volunteer contributor. But I have to agree with rolling releases being the bug catcher. You only have take a look at that other OS that has stated it won't be releasing any new versions - people losing data, people losing their credentials and not being able to access the data that is there but there login is corrupt. Many users of other OS's (no Linux) have taken the time to do fresh installs to speed up the slow-down as time has gone on so that all updates occur at point of new install. If you do a manual partitioning of your drive I suspect that you could install the new system ('/') in the space currently provided by '/' - I will test this out after I have backed up all my drive when 16 comes out and report back on the new forum.

...but take gaming out of the equation as not everyone games especially on Linux, then what's left? That is why unique features such as the non-wipe upgrading should be implemented and have priority during development. Its the unique features that draw in new users and it's those same features, that keep the users and what would make it stand out from other distros.

Yes, this is true. But to add to what you said and to what Swarf said:
"What's left?" A lot, actually.
The performance I get on Zorin is far superior to other distros I have tried and I am not a gamer.
Performance is not all about gaming.
Zorin is one of the best Distros for rejuvenating life into an old machine for that reason.

Zorin backports (I said this above) in ways others don't. Being ahead or behind (18.04 vs 20.04) is a rather simplistic way of looking at it. Another way of looking would be that Zorin takes the best elements of BOTH and combines them into one.

This is also related to performance and to my own impressions of Zorin; It Works Better with most 'out of the box' software over performing. I mean, look at this Quiet Little Forum. Most distro forums are Hopping. This one has a few active people and One Moderator.
What does that tell you?

Now, it may sound like I am trying to convince you to stick with Zorin. Frankly, I think only you and your computer can do that. What I am doing is rebutting some of your assumptions.
I think you are right that Zorin could draw in more users by focusing on elements you suggest and your suggestions are important to Zorin. But Zorin OS' focus cannot also be all-encompassing. And focus can be misleading.

For example, the "no need to wipe"upgrade sounds great and it works on many machines. But it also does not work on many machines. Slight variations in hardware and software will halt the process easily. And as the Zorin team are sticklers about making sure it runs at its best, they do not yet feel that feature is ready.
You can try it out:
pkexec your preferred file manager, then:
Navigate to /etc/update-manager
Open "release-upgrades" in your preferred text editot and change the line:
Prompt=never
to
Prompt=lts
OR to
Prompt=normal

Now open your Software Updater and run it, then wait for it to tell you that you are running 18.04 and a newer 20.04 is available. Select "upgrade."
Maybe it will work on yours. I don't think so...
Because Shell on Zorin is 3.30 not 3.28 and so the system, not an intelligent human reading, cannot tell the difference between outdated and overdated. It will refuse to Upgrade to 20.04 because you have packages that need to be updated, first.

There really are many great distros to choose from and they all have their quirks and their perks. The diversity is a great thing.

My two cents: Being a large organization is no guarantee of continuing quality. Witness Ubuntu. Now, I have a lot of respect for this distro (one of my other Linux distros at this time is Ubuntu 14), which has been so seminal to the Linux world. They had a great thing going with Unity, but unfortunately they replaced it with Gnome 3 for Ubuntu 18. Unity had its detractors, but it actually was a brilliant desktop. Also very attractive, with a beautiful aero look. And contrary to popular belief, it actually was quite easy to use.

And there are other fine Linux distros that are the result of small teams. Linux Lite (the third of my current distros) and Solus, for instance.

Sometimes, having too many voices creates chaos. Sometimes, small is better.

Well I disagree that all rolling release distros are bug catchers.
What about the curated rolling release ones like Solus? Where everything is tested before it gets released.
And OpenSUSE Tumbleweed with OpenQA testing.
I said earlier it had bugs, but they weren’t system breaking ones. Just minor ones like auto mount of drives not working but using a script they then do automount.
I’ve also had that same issue in Linux Mint, which is Debian/Ubuntu based and not rolling release.
If they’re a curated rolling release, then how are they bug catchers?

And also you say they’re backports are good. Well they’re still using gnome 3.30. Gnome is now up to 3.36 stable with slight improvements to resource management. I’ve used gnome 3.30 and 3.36 and you can see in the resource monitor that 3.36 is slightly less intensive.
If the backports were that great, they should be backporting AT LEAST v3.34.

You mentioned testing before release - that is what Zorin does. As for Solus I tried helping on there and to be economic with posting I pointed to posts I had made here and was threatened with ex-communication from the forum. Solus is no where near as polished as ZorinOS is especially in terms of Accessibility functionality - I have yet to find another distro whose menu works out-of-the box with orca screenreader - Cinnamon DE can't do it, nor can mate. What I like about Zorin is the take a great deal of time and trouble to make sure everything runs - it could be that if they backported 3.36 it might break their OS - would you want that? I know I wouldn't.

Well I disagree that all rolling release distros are bug catchers.

Fair enough. You make good points that it is not always the case.

I’ve also had that same issue in Linux Mint, which is Debian/Ubuntu based and not rolling release.
If they’re a curated rolling release, then how are they bug catchers?

You just listed two Large well staffed groups of developers.
You are likely to see more bugs with any newest release, not because they are not tested but because no amount of pre-release testing can predict allof the potential outcomes. This is well established in computing for decades.

Zorin does extensive testing; To the point that some users complain that they are not using "new" enough code.

And also you say they’re backports are good. Well they’re still using gnome 3.30. Gnome is now up to 3.36 stable with slight improvements to resource management. I’ve used gnome 3.30 and 3.36 and you can see in the resource monitor that 3.36 is slightly less intensive.
If the backports were that great, they should be backporting AT LEAST v3.34.

There are trade-offs, as well. Something may be less resource intensive in one area but more demanding of newer hardware in the other. Therefor, if you get too new of a shell, it may disable many people trying to rejuvenate older machines, which is something Zorin is known for.

Here, you only list Higher Numbers (Newest releases) as "always better."
The fallacy of the assumption is that "Newer is always better." This really seems to be the entirety of your questions from the get-go and your primary gauge.
Now, we could argue that point for several more pages of thread, really. I think we both know that would be pointless for several reasons:
1.) I have already stated my case as to why so many of us find Zorin to be a great O.S. compatible with most and user friendly, supported and stable. We may disagree over the exact nature of how we may measure that but I think it is Likely That we agree that Zorin is a Good Solid OS more than we disagree and arguing over our metrics will not change anything.
2.) You not only must have, but enjoy the freedom of exploring distros and their merits. I rebutted some of your points not really for you, but for other explorers, lurkers and readers. But there comes a point where it is an argument for arguments sake instead of for examining our ideas and our assumptions.
3.) Arguing the pros and cons in an Open Forum in order to examine the merits of each is a great thing. It is great for you and I both and great for other readers to consider questions they may not have considered before. But in the end, I am obligated to assure you that it is not my goal to try to talk you into using or accepting a Distro that does not meet your standards.
I have openly disagreed with how you measure your standard because I think other readers can learn from the difference. But they are Your Standards and I respect what is yours. What I Want Most is for you to Enjoy the distro you settle on and use for work and for play. For that distro to be Right For You.

Zorin is not perfect. It is not credible to claim any distro as the "best" distro and, like any distro, it is not right for everyone.
If someone joins the forum and suggests that the Zorins are going to ditch the users or suddenly drop development, of course I will rebut that.
And, in spite of your reservations, you gave consideration to sticking to Zorin OS for years to come due to its performance.
Clearly, I think we agree more than not and it is up to us to remember when to reign it in.

Personally, I find your ideas invigorating and I hope that you will continue to put them forth, no matter which distro you settle on. We have demonstrated that unlike the other O.S., in Linux, we have diversity that keeps us strong and on our toes, allowing user options and choices and developer freedom.