Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby gavers » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:37 pm

Aravisian wrote: not free stuff and certainly do not owe you any respect after you joined a forum to beg for free stuff that you do not deserve while you spew abuse because you didn't get what you demanded.
It didn't work for the two year old kicking and screaming on the floor, either.

Have a nice day. :)


Actually, I only asked for clarification on Zorin's policy on upgrades. Look at my first post in this thread. I don't need or want a copy of Zorin OS 15 Ultimate because Zorin already supplied the tech blog I write for with a copy for review. When I got to writing the part of the review for customers upgrading from 12, I came here as a customer asking for clarification on Zorin's upgrade options. When I got no response I put the review on hold. I was recently reminded that we had this review in queue so I came back to this, and I'm sure glad I did. This was very enlightening. The review we were going to publish was actually pretty positive. Without the response on upgrades the review was nearly forgotten. But now that has completely changed. This went from a positive review to no review to a scathing review of Zorin's horrible treatment towards paying customers. Moderators in the support forums using shill accounts to insult customers. Zorin employees either not responding or pretending not to be employees to insult people. The "I don't work for Zorin so don't blame Zorin for what I say" moderators blocking people they disagree with. This has got to be one of the worst things I've experienced from a company in all my years of reviewing technology products. I certainly can't recommend a product when customers seeking help are treated this way. If you "two" really don't work for Zorin, in your attempt to defend them you've ensured they'll be getting a very negative review and if you do represent Zorin, you should be absolutely ashamed. I didn't say I was a reviewer because I want to know how real customers get treated. This is absolutely abhorrent and I'd be doing our readers a great disservice in recommending Zorin OS. Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby Aravisian » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:56 pm

gavers wrote:
Aravisian wrote: not free stuff and certainly do not owe you any respect after you joined a forum to beg for free stuff that you do not deserve while you spew abuse because you didn't get what you demanded.
It didn't work for the two year old kicking and screaming on the floor, either.

Have a nice day. :)


Actually, I only asked for clarification on Zorin's policy on upgrades. Look at my first post in this thread. I don't need or want a copy of Zorin OS 15 Ultimate because Zorin already supplied the tech blog I write for with a copy for review. When I got to writing the part of the review for customers upgrading from 12, I came here as a customer asking for clarification on Zorin's upgrade options. When I got no response I put the review on hold. I was recently reminded that we had this review in queue so I came back to this, and I'm sure glad I did. This was very enlightening. The review we were going to publish was actually pretty positive. Without the response on upgrades the review was nearly forgotten. But now that has completely changed. This went from a positive review to no review to a scathing review of Zorin's horrible treatment towards paying customers. Moderators in the support forums using shill accounts to insult customers. Zorin employees either not responding or pretending not to be employees to insult people. The "I don't work for Zorin so don't blame Zorin for what I say" moderators blocking people they disagree with. This has got to be one of the worst things I've experienced from a company in all my years of reviewing technology products. I certainly can't recommend a product when customers seeking help are treated this way. If you "two" really don't work for Zorin, in your attempt to defend them you've ensured they'll be getting a very negative review and if you do represent Zorin, you should be absolutely ashamed. I didn't say I was a reviewer because I want to know how real customers get treated. This is absolutely abhorrent and I'd be doing our readers a great disservice in recommending Zorin OS. Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.

I'm not a moderator- it's not a shill account. And any observer can verify that with 265 or so normal posts under my belt that demonstrates a lack of being used to "shill the sheeple."
The more likely probability is that I am simply a person that speaks bluntly and called out your arguments -piece by piece- for where they were wrong.
I also do not believe your idle threats, one bit.
You did not merely ask for clarification. You went on a litany of complaint, stated that you posted negative comments on YouTube reviews and actively sought to turn people away from the Zorin Product.
I quote:
gavers wrote:I've commented on YouTube several videos featuring Zorin 15 saying how Zorin treats paying customers. I know I've convinced more than one person to stay away from Zorin. But no. I'm not using it. I tell people how I feel I wasted my money. I tell people don't use it. Don't buy it. When the next version comes out, Zorin will do to them what they did to people who paid for 12. I could have been an advocate, but I became a detractor because Zorin decided to try getting more money out of me instead of giving me value for the money I already paid.


Now, you claim you are not a Customer seeking help. You changed your story. Initially you claimed to have been a paying customer that has shown the Zorin Team support, now you claim to be a High End Reviewer that was given a copy for review by Team Zorin. So, are you saying that when you told people on Youtube that you wasted your money, that was a lie and a fraudulent statement?
You then went on an insulting and abusive tirade (if you were an actual Tech reviewer, that would look like fraud). All because you had entitlement issues and demanded free products- not because you asked for clarification on policies. A Tech Blog reviewer would not pretend to be a victim, cook up a story and then show as much self control as a frog in a mosquito factory.
gavers wrote:Our readers also deserve to know about this interaction.

Does that include the bit where you gave a dishonest account, insulted a public forum volunteer and give the appearance of entrapment? Can we include Reddit posts under this umbrella, too? :D
I call your bluff.

Because if Artyom Zorin had contacted you with a copy and asked you to review it, you would have your questions answered, already.

I also know that the vast and great many positive reviews out there on tech blogs, youtube and the like are very well supported and thoroughly researched. And they are Very Positive. I even commented on it, myself, recently on this forum.

A review wouldn't have been forgotten on hold just because someone had a nonsense question without knowing what the word "upgrade" means.

IF any of the above had any truth to it, a Positive Review you had wouldn't get scrapped by your editor just because you picked a fight with a random internet scoundrel.

Your paranoid suspicions do not impress me any. If anything, they belie a knee jerk reaction from you, demonstrate a person that not only does now understand basic economics, or what "upgrade" means and you cannot do your homework. Your posts have shown nothing but derision and anger and you do not deserve kind words from a Random Forum Member on the internet.
IF you did try posting a review in a Tech Blog based on the fact that a Forum Member called you out on your absurd commentary, your editor would have you in a sling.

So yes, this is how you get treated. By Me. You did state that you wanted to get what you deserve, after all... This is not Tech Support or Customer Service. It's a Public Discussion Board. You may as well have jumped on Reddit.


In the meantime...

Many users of Zorin have come to this Free Forum over the course of many years and received a great deal of help to honest requests with honest issues. From Volunteers who -unpaid- took time to research and find helpful answers.
If you pop in and abuse those volunteers, you don't get to cry "foul" and make threats.
And... you did.
I quote:
gavers wrote:Are you really this dense?
It's indefensible. And you have your head up your a*** if you think what you said is reasonable justification.


So... IF you are truly a reviewer from a tech blog, that has no self control, pops in abusively, stirs up dissension on a Public Discussion board, has a sleeping editor and manage to post some wacky Negative Review on your "tech Blog" (Cough Cough I'm a camel!), I will be right behind ya with your quotes for viewer review too.
;)

No, you do not get products for free and you most certainly do not get to join this forum and abuse the volunteers that help people.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby gavers » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:11 pm

Aravisian wrote:a lot of stuff


I didn't read most of that, but I'll respond to a couple things I saw. No one offered the site a copy. I asked the EIC to request a review copy. He did, and it was given. This isn't a paying gig for me so it's not a high priority. I had started writing the review last month but got sidetracked. I admit I'm lazy. I'll finish the review, and the EIC will decide what to publish. I don't get to write whatever I please, or the site loses credibility. Readers expect an honest and unbiased review and it's the EIC's job to ensure they get that. And I saw something about abusing volunteers. Participating on a forum open to the public doesn't make you a volunteer and I certainly didn't abuse anyone. I asked AZorin a question publicly, and gave my opinion on an apparent policy that still hasn't been articulated by anyone officially claiming to represent Zorin. It's dense to compare "upgrading" a car, which has significant material costs, to software which has no material cost per copy, a fixed development cost, and potential support costs. You can disagree that that's dense and if you want to believe calling someone dense for being dense is abusive, yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Whether using 12 or 15, Zorin's cost to support each user doesn't go up by giving free upgrades. In fact, by having everyone on the latest version, support costs go down. Development costs are already spent regardless of how many people upgrade. And saying I'm begging to get something free, that you say is already free, that would cost nothing for Zorin to give to people who already paid money, well that's dense too. Oh the horrible abuse you're suffering! But I have what I need to finish the review. So I'm done here. Feel free to write paragraph upon paragraph saying whatever you want about me. I won't be back to read it, but if it makes you feel better to have the last word have at it. In fact, I award you 14 internets for winning an argument on the internet. Congrats! And bye.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby Aravisian » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:35 pm

gavers wrote:I think Zorin should have proactively given buyers of Zorin OS 12 Ultimate a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate. You've given some excuses why it's ok for them to charge. But can you give a good reason why Zorin should NOT offer a free or discounted upgrade to Zorin OS 15 Ultimate (without the bundled "Lite" version) to people who recently purchased Zorin OS 12 Ultimate? (tell me why they have to charge, not why it's OK to charge)

That is not how it works.

You are the one making the claim that Zorin should offer discounts or free products. The onus is on you to support why that should be done. It is not up to others to try to prove a negative. It is not up to others to explain "why not."
You cannot prove a negative.

I actually agree with you in these parts:
1.) The price increase was too drastic (It doubled) and too unexpected.
2.) There may be a better way to achieve the same goal.

For point 1, it makes sense many people would react to an increase in price and hearing that it is a bundle that comes with more product may fall on deaf ears. If they had no need, want or use for that more product, they won't be willing to pay more. The whole reason I never bought Ultimate was because it comes with more product than I want or need. Core suits me perfectly fine.
My personal opinion is that the Price on Zorin 15 Ultimate is a bad idea.

For point 2, it gets more complex. So let's get back to your question: "Why do they have to charge?
Because it costs money to make it.
It costs money to produce and distribute it. It costs money to develop it. It costs money to provide tech Support and Customer Service for it.
And, because the Zorins want to profit.

Let's do Economics 101 _ Brutally Honest Style.

The Zorins brothers were a couple of Teens who got an idea for a Linux Distro. When they started out, the user base was small. Their first release had very few users. The Zorins could handle the load.
As time passed, more and more people were using their product.
Today, the Most Popular Linux Distro is Linux Mint. Mint is supported by a large company and a great many people.
Zorin 12 was ranked 24 to 26 place behind Mint. That may not seem like much, but that's pretty high. But Zorin Team is not a company with many people.
Their workload increased- A LOT. This very success of Zorin is also the downfall... It's a testament to how good the O.S. has been, but it also comes with greater demands. The Zorin Team needed to expand- HIRE more People. Hire Developers. Hire support. This wasn't started by a company, it started on the bottom floor with two kids. There's nothing to fall back on when income decreases.
Since Zorin O.S. is a Linux Distro, this means that it is FREE.
It Is Free.
You can download an Ultimate Paid Version, but you certainly do not have to. Core is Just as Good and it is FREE. Downloading Ultimate is an act to show support for the development and keep the project going.
As time passed, fewer and fewer people were downloading Ultimate and more and more were downloading Core. The demands increased, the income decreased. Economics.

Now your question answered and the economics covered, why not a Free Product? You do get a free product. Lite. Core.
Why not a free Ultimate? Because the purpose of Ultimate is to gather income to pay the costs and expenses of the project. Office rental, tech and hiring developers and support.
Why not a discount? Same as above. Which also brings as back to the cost of Ultimate doubling. By doubling the cost of it, it inspired people to think of wanting a discount. It's an unfamiliar change. It is not because people deserve one. Your investment in Zorin 12 was not eternal. Anymore than your investment in a video game is eternal. You don't get all sequels for free. You don't get to buy Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and then get Raiders of the Lost Ark for Free.
You are not entitled to a discount or free, and if you believe you are, the onus is on you to explain clearly why, not on others to explain (ad infinitum) why not.
So, brutally honest right?
You don't Care about entitlement or discounts or the rest- You just Do Not Want To Pay That Much. You want the product, but you don't want the Higher Price.
I agree.
The Zorins want to make money. They wanted to make it a career, get a nice retirement out of it. Expand, hire more people, decrease workload and increase profits.
I agree with that, too.

So for 2, I think that they SHOULD knock the price of Ultimate Down. Remove the Bundle aspect.
I think that Zorin should also do like others do with Patreon, set up an account that we can donate ANY amount to, to show our support. I won't pay forty euros, but I would be happy to donate to the Zorin Team what I can afford. I would even be happy to make multiple smaller donations over time, instead of one time medium sized purchases. The smaller donations would add up to a greater amount.

gavers wrote:It's dense to compare "upgrading" a car, which has significant material costs, to software which has no material cost per copy, a fixed development cost, and potential support costs. Whether using 12 or 15, Zorin's cost to support each user doesn't go up by giving free upgrades. In fact, by having everyone on the latest version, support costs go down. Development costs are already spent regardless of how many people upgrade. And saying I'm begging to get something free, that you say is already free, that would cost nothing for Zorin to give to people who already paid money,

Totally Wrong.
As has already been explained to you:

Zorin 15 is not
NOT
Not
not
an upgrade to Zorin 12.
How many times can it be explained to you?

It is a separate Development Project. It was not developed for free- but at great cost. Those costs included Two Other Developers that are no longer with Team Zorin. They worked on getting 15 developed and released before moving on to other projects.
Development costs are not already spent... Does your employer say that he doesn't need to keep paying you for your many hours of work because he already paid you your first paycheck? That's total nonsense! I know you must know better than this. Development is not a fixed cost.
Those costs are covered by those that want to see the projects continue and support Zorin by buying Ultimate. That's the purpose of Ultimate. That is why it exists. If they are going to give that away free, too,and not cover the costs of development, they would never have made Ultimate, left it at Core Edition, gotten regular full time jobs at some company and Zorin releases would be slow and unpredictable.
gavers wrote:You can disagree that that's dense and if you want to believe calling someone dense for being dense is abusive, yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Who is being dense here...? Considering having to explain what upgrade means to you ad infinitum and you still don't get it... According to you, calling you dense right now wouldn't be abuse and you can't accuse it as negative treatment for your "review."
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby JeffK969 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:57 am

Wow... what a read.. I don't want to re-start the hostility, but I can clearly see good points made by both sides. One side more than the other, but good points nonetheless. I completely understand and agree that Zorin has a few options to pay, not to pay. Pay to support the cause or not to pay and use for free. It's all about choices that best suite your needs. I got Ultimate. For me, there were way to many packages that I would never use/need. Just an average user, not a power user. After a while removing a bunch, just decided to move to Core. Made me happy. My choice. Would I donate again to help the cause, yes. But not at £39. I'd give $15, $20, $25 maybe, but we are not given that option (I'm sure if I'm wrong on that, I will be corrected). I donate to Mint, Thunderbird, Firefox and a few others that I use and have come to need on my PC. I can also see the point of buying something only to find out not too long later I could have had a better version and could have saved the money to use for the better product. The two for one thing, you can only use 1 at a time. So that comes across as a weak claim. But hey, I didn't create their business model and Zorin has every right to do it as they please. If it works for them, great. If they see a decrease and loss, they can always change it down the road. Would it be awesome for already paid customers get a break on a new version, heck yeah. Flip side, can you get Core and use completely for free, yes. I'm just waiting for the Zorin Lite 15 to come out to try, may even replace core with it (Seems that the extra speed I see with XFCE draws me to those versions). But it's all choice here. No one makes you pay. You can get it for free. I personally would like to see the Zorin brothers have success for a long time, and live off this until retirement (I'll be dead by then, but a user until that happens. They are so young..lol) But we as customers have a choice, so why complain. Just move on and let those that enjoy Zorin, enjoy it. So save the £39 and use Core, You'll be happy.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby Hoffmn » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:50 pm

A bottle of whiskey costs $26 bucks... Zorin is a rock solid OS that doesn't crash and that always works... and is even easy to set up for someone who is not an IT professional... I ran Mac OS 10.6.8 for ten years with no upgrades... Zorin 15 is so good, that I could see myself using it for a long haul too.

You can run aps on Zorin like: Scribus, Gimp 2.10, Sublime Text, Darktable, Foobar2000 and the latest Mozilla stuff! I don't think I'll be going back to Adobe if I can have Scribus and Gimp 2.10. I might have to for Adobe Acrobat.

These journalists use their position of trust to mislead and misguide their readers time and time again. Thanks to Aravisian for a sane point of view on this one.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby Aravisian » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:04 pm

JeffK969 wrote:Would I donate again to help the cause, yes. But not at £39. I'd give $15, $20, $25 maybe, but we are not given that option (I'm sure if I'm wrong on that, I will be corrected).

Forty euros is too steep for me, too, right now. I agree 100% about a better donation model.
I had suggested that they do like some SciShow youtubers and set up a Pantheon account. You could donate only $1.00 but more people would donate.
JeffK969 wrote:I can also see the point of buying something only to find out not too long later I could have had a better version and could have saved the money to use for the better product. --Would it be awesome for already paid customers get a break on a new version, heck yeah.

When Zorin 15 was released, this question was being asked all over the board and Swarfendor and then myself were recommending that the user sends a PM to the Zorin Team and asks for a break. It does make sense.
However, as more and more and more people kept asking, going back a rather lengthy period of time, a problem surfaced.
1.) The release of Zorin 15 was well anticipated. It's not like Zorin 15 was a big surprise and how many people really bought 12.4 Core a week before 15 came out? At what point is the buyer responsible for their homework and decisions?
2.) It's a slippery slope, how far back do you go? When a person asked about a discount or break on buying Zorin 15 when they had bought 12.4 Ultimate almost a year -or More- ago... Some felt entitled to a "Free Upgrade" two years in.
One thing became apparent: That 12.4 Ultimate cost half what Zorin 15 Ultimate did. You realize that the motive was not about a 'free upgrade' but about general unhappiness with the doubled price and that the user was looking for a way of reducing that price.

The lack of happiness in a Doubled Price is a valid point. But I do think People may be responsible to themselves and self aware enough to accept the thing that truly is bothering them instead of looking for an 'out' or an excuse.

JeffK969 wrote:If it works for them, great. If they see a decrease and loss, they can always change it down the road.

With decisions come costs.
I was discussing the concpets of Leadership with someone recently and my advise was three - the lessons I have learned in life:
1.) Leadership means carrying the hard decisions. The decisions others don't want to be responsible for.
2.) Before you can lead, you must follow.
3.) Leadership is not about barking orders and telling others what to do. It is about inspiring others to WANT to follow your lead.
The Zorin Team consists of two people and they are in charge of Zorin. The decisions and the responsibility of carrying them falls on Zorin; we have the luxury of complaining about their decisions without having to make them.
I disagree with doubling the price on Ultimate and I disagree with not having a Pantheon-style donation account set up. The decisions are not mine to make and while it is permissible that I give confrontation; It is also the honorable thing to do to defend their decisions.
I get a little testy when someone pops up and demands entitlement to free product of someone elses labor, especially when that Free Product is already 100% available from the people that labored to make it with only the OPTION for a DONATION made available instead of a set price on all users.
JeffK969 wrote:I'm just waiting for the Zorin Lite 15 to come out to try, may even replace core with it (Seems that the extra speed I see with XFCE draws me to those versions).

Agreed. I am already writing up my .css junk in anticipation of 15 Lite. I bet I won't plan it right and will have my hands tied and will have to redo it all...
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby mdiemer » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:27 pm

I run some expensive music creation libraries. Several years ago I paid full price for one of them, I think it was around 500.00. Literally the next day they dropped the price by half. What did I do? I sucked it up and said, "Them's the breaks."

Sheesh.
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby JeffK969 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:04 am

LOL.. I hear ya. I am just at the point as to where I can't stand threats. Like the American Left trying to shame or harm people who think differently then them by telling crazies where opposition lives. People can make up their own minds. It's a form of bullying to me. Any valid point he made (I was agreeing with a few points that were made and still somewhat do) were negated by the negative review threats. He must have some huge following... Maybe...lol

Would it be nice if Lite 15 and Ultimate were stand alones, sold seperately. Heck Yeah. But they are not. I like this OS a lot and will just use the versions I'm happy with. It's my choice. If I don't like them, it's my decision to go elsewhere or stay. I choose to stay (and will admit I also have and use Mint daily). But to complain, why bother. Just write the review and let the adults decide. But it did make for an interesting read..Haha. I like good, well written arguments. A good job was done...

And asking for more free stuff after getting a free version, must be a millennial..lol I just don't get it..
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Re: Upgrading from Zorin 12 Ultimate to version 15

Postby Aravisian » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:23 am

JeffK969 wrote:Any valid point he made (I was agreeing with a few points that were made and still somewhat do)
I agree that a point that is valid must be recognized as valid, regardless of personal feelings or general disagreement with points thought to be invalid.
JeffK969 wrote:were negated by the negative review threats. He must have some huge following... Maybe...lol

I do not believe he was a reviewer, at all.

If the fella had been decent and honorable and honest, he probably would have gotten a favorable response. But deflecting his ire over the price toward entitlement issues and then claiming to be in a position of authority and using that to make threats- I was left with no desire to take prisoners.

The Zorin Team is always, 100% extremely professional, courteous and polite. I enjoyed the human luxury of not needing to be.

In addition, the Zorin Team consisted of (I think) four people during production of Zorin 15 and of two people after as the others went on to other projects needing their attention.
This small handful of people promised an OS to Knock Your Socks off and while Zorin 15 is not MY cup 'o' tea, I believe they delivered as promised, without a shadow of a doubt. In such, they provided, FOR FREE amazing hard work and dedication.
We cannot get Greedy and try to take advantage of such. "It's FOSS, baby!" is an core belief that is starting to lose ground as more MS refugees move to Linux but carry their MS attitudes along with them.
Gotta make a stand against that. Gnome is already as bad as MS ever was. Canonical is not much better and MS bought Github.

JeffK969 wrote:Would it be nice if Lite 15 and Ultimate were stand alones, sold seperately. Heck Yeah. But they are not.

I believe that Zorin 15 Lite will be released FREE, soon.
JeffK969 wrote:
And asking for more free stuff after getting a free version, must be a millennial..lol I just don't get it..

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